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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2016 15:22:24 GMT
Reluctantly have to agree. But which six would go?
Leics, Northants, Derbyshire, Worcs, Kent and Glos, I guess, as none of them have produced top England players in ages apart from Moeen Ali (who actually started at Warwicks) and Broad (who started at Leics, but could just as easily have gone straight to Trent Bridge as his father played for Notts). The truth is there is now such a divide in quality between the two CC divisions that Div Two is not suitable for breeding Test players, and those on the fringes like Willey will leave for Div One counties, anyway.
But it is idle to speculate. A major reastructuring is not going to happen - although one or two counties may fold due to bankrupcy over the next few seasons and I'm not sure the ECB under Graves will be minded to save them.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Mar 10, 2016 16:36:58 GMT
Bm,
A major reastructuring is not going to happen
That's my point - therefore, the cycle will continue on and on and on...
Sadly, only when a county does go bankrupt, the shock waves may, just may, create real change; but, I don't see that happening either when you have the financial defibrillators of the ECB and local councils bailing them out.
Of your list: Leics, Northants, Derbyshire, Worcs, Kent and Glos, how do you choose? Derbyshire are improving under the leadership of Christopher Grant. Worcestershire make a steady profit. Leicestershire have renewed optimism under Wasim Khan. Of your 6 Northants are ready to be culled but shouldn't Glamorgan have been put out of its misery several years ago? An impossibility when the ECB 'Tafia Mafia' are in charge and the TMG is seen as vital to Welsh interests.
Sadly, I see no resolution to the problem. Followers of county cricket are very lucky people who live in an unreal fantasy world where the cut and thrust of 21st century commercialism has little bearing. Perhaps, not just Arundel should be referred to as 'Narnia-Land' but the entire county cricket set up.
The problem being is that unless you have a realistic commercial structure, the business is doomed to collapse, where the weaker counties may eventually bring down the stronger ones.
Meanwhile, the ECB rely primarily on TV/Media revenue to keep the whole charabanc afloat. Reduce that revenue and county cricket may be forced to change. That is the only way, imho. Meanwhile, keep enjoying the delights of Narnia.
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Post by invicta1977 on Mar 10, 2016 17:51:17 GMT
To be sure Sussex are working very hard on recreating that inclusivity by folding in the county-wide amateur set-up to synthesise with the administration of the Brighton-based game, but it's another awkward compromise to try to keep alive the idea that the game has both rural and pluralistic roots. Kent escape from this only because the transport infrastructure, especially connecting Canterbury to the rest of the county, is so diabolical. Oh, I dunno. One can reach Canterbury West from St Pancras in 59 minutes these days.
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Post by invicta1977 on Mar 10, 2016 17:59:07 GMT
Sadly, I see no resolution to the problem. Followers of county cricket are very lucky people who live in an unreal fantasy world where the cut and thrust of 21st century commercialism has little bearing. Perhaps, not just Arundel should be referred to as 'Narnia-Land' but the entire county cricket set up. The problem being is that unless you have a realistic commercial structure, the business is doomed to collapse, where the weaker counties may eventually bring down the stronger ones. Meanwhile, the ECB rely primarily on TV/Media revenue to keep the whole charabanc afloat. Reduce that revenue and county cricket may be forced to change. That is the only way, imho. Meanwhile, keep enjoying the delights of Narnia. The funny thing is that, several decades ago, county cricket used to exist on shirt buttons. Kent were so skint when they won the Championship in 1970 that they couldn't even afford to provide their players with celebratory champagne. In the intervening years, cash-rich one-day cricket has increased its presence and we have sponsorship of all competitions, counties and most grounds. More Tests and ODIs are played - with bigger crowds - than ever before and the TV money has gone through the roof. Marketing and hospitality has improved out of sight, clubs provide numerous additional services to rake in the dosh and many have sold off chunks of real estate to bolster their accounts. I can't believe the English game has ever been so lucrative. So where does it all go? It can't just be improved salaries and conditions, surely?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2016 19:09:28 GMT
The funny thing is that, several decades ago, county cricket used to exist on shirt buttons. Kent were so skint when they won the Championship in 1970 that they couldn't even afford to provide their players with celebratory champagne. In the intervening years, cash-rich one-day cricket has increased its presence and we have sponsorship of all competitions, counties and most grounds. More Tests and ODIs are played - with bigger crowds - than ever before and the TV money has gone through the roof. Marketing and hospitality has improved out of sight, clubs provide numerous additional services to rake in the dosh and many have sold off chunks of real estate to bolster their accounts. I can't believe the English game has ever been so lucrative. So where does it all go? It can't just be improved salaries and conditions, surely?a) I think Cowdrey paid for the celebratory champagne at the Oval in 1970 out of his own pocket (although wasn't there a story that Ted Heath chipped in, and I bet MCC claimed the money back from his father-in-law Stuart Chiesman, who was Kent chairman and owned the biggest department store in Lewisham - and may be other stores,too, but the Lewisham outlet was the one I knew as we bought our first three-piece suite there in 1976). b) The sponsorship back then was as extensive as now, it was just less brash. Who paid for all the 'amateurs' to play pre-1963 without salaries? Banks, city institutions, stockbroking firms etc. who salaried the players and asked for very little 'work' in return. Today, they would be demanding the company logo should be emblazoned on the players' shirts and at the foot of every ghosted newspaper column. 'Colin Cowdrey is brought to you courtesy of Chiesman's of Lewisham' etc. c) I suspect that yes, improved salaries and conditions is exactly where much of the money goes - and quite rightly,too. I was brought up watching the great Kent team of the 1960s/1970s and apart from the trio who went on England overseas tours - Cowdrey, Knott and Underwood, later joined by Denness, Luckhurst and Woolmer - all the players had menial winter jobs. That continued into the 1990s when Ed Giddins had a job chopping down conifers for the Christmas tree trade and David Masters kept himself in trim for the next season by being a hod-carrier on a building site.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2016 19:34:17 GMT
By the way, I have thought of one major advantage in moving the 50 over competiton to April and early May.
That should ast least put an end to the utterly ridiculous playing hours of 2 -10 pm. Nobody is going to sit there shivering under floodlights at 10 pm in April so games will have to revert to 10.30 am to 6.30pm.
Even so, you have to wonder how many days so early in the season are going to offer weather that is clement enough to allow an uniterrupted 100 overs. Messrs Duckworth and Lewis are going to be busier than ever before...
Why not just scrap the entire competition and tell those representing England in 50 over ODIs to treat it like T20 x 2.5. Which, after all, is what all the best teams did at the World Cup last year ...
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Post by invicta1977 on Mar 10, 2016 20:43:54 GMT
The funny thing is that, several decades ago, county cricket used to exist on shirt buttons. Kent were so skint when they won the Championship in 1970 that they couldn't even afford to provide their players with celebratory champagne. In the intervening years, cash-rich one-day cricket has increased its presence and we have sponsorship of all competitions, counties and most grounds. More Tests and ODIs are played - with bigger crowds - than ever before and the TV money has gone through the roof. Marketing and hospitality has improved out of sight, clubs provide numerous additional services to rake in the dosh and many have sold off chunks of real estate to bolster their accounts. I can't believe the English game has ever been so lucrative. So where does it all go? It can't just be improved salaries and conditions, surely?a) I think Cowdrey paid for the celebratory champagne at the Oval in 1970 out of his own pocket (although wasn't there a story that Ted Heath chipped in, and I bet MCC claimed the money back from his father-in-law Stuart Chiesman, who was Kent chairman and owned the biggest department store in Lewisham - and may be other stores,too, but the Lewisham outlet was the one I knew as we bought our first three-piece suite there in 1976). b) The sponsorship back then was as extensive as now, it was just less brash. Who paid for all the 'amateurs' to play pre-1963 without salaries? Banks, city institutions, stockbroking firms etc. who salaried the players and asked for very little 'work' in return. Today, they would be demanding the company logo should be emblazoned on the players' shirts and at the foot of every ghosted newspaper column. 'Colin Cowdrey is brought to you courtesy of Chiesman's of Lewisham' etc. c) I suspect that yes, improved salaries and conditions is exactly where much of the money goes - and quite rightly,too. I was brought up watching the great Kent team of the 1960s/1970s and apart from the trio who went on England overseas tours - Cowdrey, Knott and Underwood, later joined by Denness, Luckhurst and Woolmer - all the players had menial winter jobs. That continued into the 1990s when Ed Giddins had a job chopping down conifers for the Christmas tree trade and David Masters kept himself in trim for the next season by being a hod-carrier on a building site. It still goes on today. After helping Yorkshire win the Championship, Jonny Bairstow earned a crust during the winter by doing seal impersonations in Africa.
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Post by invicta1977 on Mar 10, 2016 20:52:13 GMT
By the way, I have thought of one major advantage in moving the 50 over competiton to April and early May. That should ast least put an end to the utterly ridiculous playing hours of 2 -10 pm. Nobody is going to sit there shivering under floodlights at 10 pm in April so games will have to revert to 10.30 am to 6.30pm. Even so, you have to wonder how many days so early in the season are going to offer weather that is clement enough to allow an uniterrupted 100 overs. Messrs Duckworth and Lewis are going to be busier than ever before... Why not just scrap the entire competition and tell those representing England in 50 over ODIs to treat it like T20 x 2.5. Which, after all, is what all the best teams did at the World Cup last year ... Although I really enjoy the long one-dayers and am pleased that the B&H is back, I have to agree - what's the point in it? There's scant evidence that the domestic version assists in the development of England ODI players and it's not exactly popular. From my wanderings around the land, it seems that few of the spectators are young eager one-day fans but old farts like myself who are turning up because there's no f-c stuff to watch. But the competition didn't even need to be scrapped, merely trimmed to allow those eight Championship days to be preserved. Not that I believe preserving the CC format was ever on the agenda, even had the Earth been shifted off its axis by meteor strike, giving the UK the climate of Aruba.
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Post by invicta1977 on Mar 11, 2016 7:27:37 GMT
c) I suspect that yes, improved salaries and conditions is exactly where much of the money goes - and quite rightly,too. I was brought up watching the great Kent team of the 1960s/1970s and apart from the trio who went on England overseas tours - Cowdrey, Knott and Underwood, later joined by Denness, Luckhurst and Woolmer - all the players had menial winter jobs. That continued into the 1990s when Ed Giddins had a job chopping down conifers for the Christmas tree trade and David Masters kept himself in trim for the next season by being a hod-carrier on a building site. Quite rightly so indeed. And, amidst all the hand-wringing about financial hardship and funding, I think that's too often forgotten. In less than fifty years. English pro cricket has gone from being a sometimes struggling business that treated its employees pretty shabbily to a sometimes struggling business that treats its employees pretty well. It's employing a greater number of people in support roles and also added one more f-c club to its roster to a highly successful effect. During that time, it even managed to continue its historical knack of giving the world another exciting new format. I'd say it's something of a success story. Of course, the English game cannot stand still and, a season-by-season look back over the past 50 years will show that it seldom does - changes are always being made to formats, scheduling, points systems, pitch regulations. Kit has changed, floodlights have been built, grounds enhanced. So, I worry that cricket having to 'sustain' itself is being used as a pejorative term, as if it's a fragile patient having to be artificially kept alive. I prefer to see it as a thirty-year old executive who does a good job but who is constantly racking up debts and is always having to take remedial action. But his overall existence is an entirely positive one. We should celebrate our own small parts in the success story of English cricket rather than miserably contemplating it being downsized.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Mar 11, 2016 9:48:53 GMT
Invicta,
I agree with you, county cricket is a wonderful thing and I feel lucky that I gain so much pleasure from following and watching it. We all seek out our own piece of 'Narnia' in life and for me it is this extraordinary sport.
While, I fully accept county cricket must continually change to survive, yet be consistently fudged by its administrators, and generally never become a perfect specimen of 21st century commercial life, that for me, is one of its wonders. It bears no resemblance to a successful business model in any shape or form, yet it carries on oblivious, with two fingers raised to the City bods. Dare I say county cricket is the punk of modern society where it stubbornly plays out cricket formats that only a dying few wish to watch.
How cool is that!
I agree county cricket has never been so wealthy but it has never been so in debt either. A crazy moment of madness in the mid-2000 when the euphoria of the 2005 Ashes series made us all believe cricket had returned to the dizzy heights of populist heaven... sadly, a majority of those in charge of TMGs did not have the business experience or vision to create the necessary developments to their grounds without gloriously going into debt. Some did not like Notts and Lancashire, others like Warwickshire, Yorkshire, Glamorgan etc etc.. did so and spectacularly.
Hail the local councils. Without them Kent, Hampshire, Glamorgan, Warwickshire, Durham, Northants, to name a few, might not be existing now and Narnia would be an allotment rather than a green and pleasant land.
How many times have I watched a county game at Hove and thought 'what a lucky chap I am'.
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Post by invicta1977 on Mar 11, 2016 12:29:39 GMT
Invicta, I agree with you, county cricket is a wonderful thing and I feel lucky that I gain so much pleasure from following and watching it. We all seek out our own piece of 'Narnia' in life and for me it is this extraordinary sport. While, I fully accept county cricket must continually change to survive, yet be consistently fudged by its administrators, and generally never become a perfect specimen of 21st century commercial life, that for me, is one of its wonders. It bears no resemblance to a successful business model in any shape or form, yet it carries on oblivious, with two fingers raised to the City bods. Dare I say county cricket is the punk of modern society where it stubbornly plays out cricket formats that only a dying few wish to watch. How cool is that! I agree county cricket has never been so wealthy but it has never been so in debt either. A crazy moment of madness in the mid-2000 when the euphoria of the 2005 Ashes series made us all believe cricket had returned to the dizzy heights of populist heaven... sadly, a majority of those in charge of TMGs did not have the business experience or vision to create the necessary developments to their grounds without gloriously going into debt. Some did not like Notts and Lancashire, others like Warwickshire, Yorkshire, Glamorgan etc etc.. did so and spectacularly. Hail the local councils. Without them Kent, Hampshire, Glamorgan, Warwickshire, Durham, Northants, to name a few, might not be existing now and Narnia would be an allotment rather than a green and pleasant land. How many times have I watched a county game at Hove and thought 'what a lucky chap I am'. Certainly, the county business model would have economist frothing with apoplexy. But I guess it depends on our definition of success. As a lad, I heard the warnings that supermarkets would cause the traditional 'corner shops' to fail because they wouldn't be able to compete with such an advanced model. But they still exist all over the place, not without a struggle I should think but, they give people a living and provide a local service. They succeed on a modest scale. County cricket might adopt a mad model but it continues to bring entertainment to various locations across the land and employs more people than ever at better salaries and conditions. Aside from the economics, if English Cricket's success is ultimately judged on its standing on the World stage, then it might be said to have delivered fairly well over the past decade. The national team is presently just two series wins from holding every available Test trophy and, despite a slight falling off of attendances in recent years, home internationals are generally far better attended than 30 or 40 years ago. I do share your gratitude when lounging at Tunbridge Wells, Arundel and the like. It feels like a secret privilege. But then I also muse: "Well, I've been giving my time and money to this scene for 40 years, I buy Test Match tickets and have Sky Sports, I don't think I'm undeserving".
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Post by glosexile on Mar 11, 2016 19:45:23 GMT
Just a couple of thoughts:
1. It seems that in many circles there seems to be an assumption that reverting to a block T20 format will ensure that clubs will automatically be able to sign the world class (mercenary) T20 specialists. I seem to think that this season both Gayle and McCullum are only available until towards the end of June. I presume that they are then engaged for the Caribbean Premier League in July. I do think that it is essential that in future seasons we somehow look to negotiate and fit within the international calendar rather than merely assuming that the T20 stars will come here for whatever summer period that we decide upon.
2. It seems that playing our T20 in the school summer holidays is seen as some sort of wonderful panacea. Does this mean a very dramatic marketing change regarding the actual target crowd demographic. The previous target audience has seemed to very much focus on the "Friday Night Party Crowd"..........those prepared to pay stupid amounts in the ground in order to create their beer snakes. Although the family crowd is far more desirable, it does not really compare if treating potential punters as merely cash cows is the main criteria!!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2016 1:17:46 GMT
Just a couple of thoughts:
1. It seems that in many circles there seems to be an assumption that reverting to a block T20 format will ensure that clubs will automatically be able to sign the world class (mercenary) T20 specialists. I seem to think that this season both Gayle and McCullum are only available until towards the end of June. I presume that they are then engaged for the Caribbean Premier League in July. I do think that it is essential that in future seasons we somehow look to negotiate and fit within the international calendar rather than merely assuming that the T20 stars will come here for whatever summer period that we decide upon.
2. It seems that playing our T20 in the school summer holidays is seen as some sort of wonderful panacea. Does this mean a very dramatic marketing change regarding the actual target crowd demographic. The previous target audience has seemed to very much focus on the "Friday Night Party Crowd"..........those prepared to pay stupid amounts in the ground in order to create their beer snakes. Although the family crowd is far more desirable, it does not really compare if treating potential punters as merely cash cows is the main criteria!!! Two very good thoughts and I wonder if they were discussed at the meeting of county CEOs, who, with one or two exceptions, strike me as a brain-dead bunch who would never rise above mediocre lower-middle managament in any properly competitive business. On 1. You would think the CPL would have to move back to June. Otherwise it's going to be a straight bidding war as to who can pay more. In which case franchises - even West Indian ones - will win as they can pay higher fees than shire counties (although the TMGs might be able to match, so a clash will futher widen the division between the have and have-nots in county cricket). 2. This goes to the very nub. Two years ago the ECB and most counties - Sussex among them - turned their back on cricket as a family attraction when they went gung-ho for marketing T20 at the 'it's-Friday-night-and-we-just-got-paid-so-let's-get-pissed-and-fall-over' football crowd. The message was clear and Glosexile hints at it : families bring picnics to Sat or Sun afternoon games when dad might buy one pint, if you're lucky. Which is clearly not a substitute for baying beer-snake morons trying to show off to each other that they can put away six pints in the course of a three hour match, no problem-o. It just goes to expose the muddy thinking of the counties. For right or wrong, I think Graves, Harrison and Strauss have a long-term vision. The county clubs only think short-term and parochially, and their veto is why we flip-flop pathetically back and forth not only between schedules but, as glosexile points out, between utterly contradictory marketing strategies. ECB needs to take a firm grip and change the rules of engagement so that it can simply say to the counties, "eff off, this is what we are doing, whether you like it or not".
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Post by invicta1977 on Mar 12, 2016 10:52:24 GMT
Just a couple of thoughts:
1. It seems that in many circles there seems to be an assumption that reverting to a block T20 format will ensure that clubs will automatically be able to sign the world class (mercenary) T20 specialists. I seem to think that this season both Gayle and McCullum are only available until towards the end of June. I presume that they are then engaged for the Caribbean Premier League in July. I do think that it is essential that in future seasons we somehow look to negotiate and fit within the international calendar rather than merely assuming that the T20 stars will come here for whatever summer period that we decide upon.
2. It seems that playing our T20 in the school summer holidays is seen as some sort of wonderful panacea. Does this mean a very dramatic marketing change regarding the actual target crowd demographic. The previous target audience has seemed to very much focus on the "Friday Night Party Crowd"..........those prepared to pay stupid amounts in the ground in order to create their beer snakes. Although the family crowd is far more desirable, it does not really compare if treating potential punters as merely cash cows is the main criteria!!! Two very good thoughts and I wonder if they were discussed at the meeting of county CEOs, who, with one or two exceptions, strike me as a brain-dead bunch who would never rise above mediocre lower-middle managament in any properly competitive business.On 1. You would think the CPL would have to move back to June. Otherwise it's going to be a straight bidding war as to who can pay more. In which case franchises - even West Indian ones - will win as they can pay higher fees than shire counties (although the TMGs might be able to match, so a clash will futher widen the division between the have and have-nots in county cricket). 2. This goes to the very nub. Two years ago the ECB and most counties - Sussex among them - turned their back on cricket as a family attraction when they went gung-ho for marketing T20 at the 'it's-Friday-night-and-we-just-got-paid-so-let's-get-pissed-and-fall-over' football crowd. The message was clear and Glosexile hints at it : families bring picnics to Sat or Sun afternoon games when dad might buy one pint, if you're lucky. Which is clearly not a substitute for baying beer-snake morons trying to show off to each other that they can put away six pints in the course of a three hour match, no problem-o. It just goes to expose the muddy thinking of the counties. For right or wrong, I think Graves, Harrison and Strauss have a long-term vision. The county clubs only think short-term and parochially, and their veto is why we flip-flop pathetically back and forth not only between schedules but, as glosexile points out, between utterly contradictory marketing strategies. ECB needs to take a firm grip and change the rules of engagement so that it can simply say to the counties, "eff off, this is what we are doing, whether you like it or not". I'd have thought that "Go for the fast dollar whatever the cost" was the very essence of state-of-the-art business thinking in the UK. All across sports and most other entertainments too. Even London Zoo has been heavily criticised for its Zoo Lates initiative which has suggested an attitude of "Yeah, a few animals might get traumatised but think of all those beer sales".
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Mar 12, 2016 14:03:20 GMT
Bm, Two years ago the ECB and most counties - Sussex among them - turned their back on cricket as a family attraction when they went gung-ho for marketing T20 at the 'it's-Friday-night-and-we-just-got-paid-so-let's-get-pissed-and-fall-over' football crowd. Be careful to blame Sussex as they, along with 17 other counties, march to the bugle call of the ECB. They had no choice in the Friday evening matter. The ECB told them to. I've interviewed Gordon Hollins on various occasions - the man who puts the latest ECB mayfly idea into practice - and it's like talking to a man of a thousand ideas. Each year there's something new. For the county cricket marketing department it must be a nightmare. First, you're told to market for a T20 June/July block; this suddenly changes to the Friday 'swill beer' nights throughout the season. Just when there's some momentum, you're told to return to the first initiative and now there's hints of a Franchise tournament up the road. And why I regularly question: Are the ECB fit for purpose? Like some headless chicken, they run around in circles, trying this idea, another idea, dragging 18 counties in their slipstream, in some desperate attempt to make cricket popular. Have a strong idea - believe in that idea - and stay with it. It reminds me of a Premiership football club who change their manager every 6 months because they lose a few matches. Is it no wonder that respect for the ECB continues to dwindle. Whether it be treating England players like mules; counties like fools; sacking England players because the ECB management are not strong enough to handle them; creating a mockery and huge embarrassment over the financially disastrous development of 'The Swalec' etc, etc.. Meanwhile, there may have been a sigh of relief when Giles Clarke stepped down but there is no sign, at present, that Colin Graves is any better. If cricket is to survive over the next 25 years, you must have a strong administration running it. One with a dynamic future vision; one who can think out of the box. If various counties don't like a strong idea then stop trying to appease them. Say, if they don't accept, you won't be giving them anymore money. Period. County cricket is at a pivotal point in its evolution. The decisions made now are vital for its future survival. Let's get them right. Stop all this dilly-dallying. Make decisions - believe in them - and then stick with them. Lecture over.
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