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Post by jonboy on Sept 30, 2014 14:58:49 GMT
But we have no trouble in developing wicketkeepers. That's the way these things go, some counties struggle to find a decent keeper, we have three, and the same again in the pipeline. I would say the bowling thing is becoming a bit of a worry though, because outside of Hatchett and Hobden, who is there. George Garton is someone we have high hopes for but I can't think of any more to be fair
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Sept 30, 2014 15:57:44 GMT
grandaven,
"Spot them at 10-11 and develop. Sussex fail to do this."
Sussex have one of the best Colts and Academy systems of any county. But Sussex also has a small population when compared with some other counties.
eg. Sussex 1.6m: Yorkshire 5.23m (2011 figures).
And why Sussex have partnerships with Oxfordshire and Guernsey. History shows that youngsters often come through in waves. RMJ, Kirtley and Lewry. Yardy, Prior, Nash. Perhaps, we are still awaiting a new wave although Machan, Hobden and Finch look promising.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 16:07:40 GMT
Good bowlers from other areas are like pink elephants. You have to have a system in place to bring talent through. Spot them at 10-11 and develop. Sussex fail to do this. Don't say we have Hatchett, Hobden etc, some counties have 4 or 5 of first team quality. The blame has to be with the coaches? Develop in house, not waste money on cast off's. We need wickets that encourage bowlers too! No point in beating up Sussex for not producing in-house fast bowlers, as hardly anyone else does either, with the exception of Durham. And ironically, perhaps Leicestershire (Broad, Gurney, Liddle and Buck to name four currently seaming for other counties.) In fact Leicestershire is a good example of how a great academy set-up may not necessarily benefit the county that develops the players, when you add in the likes of Wright, Taylor, Stevens, Maddy etc. Not sure what has gone wrong there. Leics were one of the leading counties of the late 1990s, winning two championships in three years. Now they've gone two seasons without an LVCC win, although they have won the T20 three times , of course, whch nobody else has yet done. Despite their current difficulties, I guess there are many counties who would swap places with a record of five trophies in 18 years and the impressive record of their academy in consistently producing top players. It's just a shame they all leave!
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Post by jonboy on Sept 30, 2014 16:13:04 GMT
For the immediate future we have a problem We don't have any younger quicks in the pipeline apart from Hatchett and Hobden. If we are lucky, and he continues to develop, George Garton might be ready in a couple of years. Last season, five of our pace bowlers were the wrong side of thirty, which means, while we wait for our academy to produce the next batch, we'll have to bring them in from elsewhere. We need to replace at least two of the thirty something's, with younger bowlers to make sure we have a few more youngsters to challenge Hatchett and Hobden
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Post by hhsussex on Sept 30, 2014 16:32:10 GMT
grandaven, "Spot them at 10-11 and develop. Sussex fail to do this." Sussex have one of the best Colts and Academy systems of any county. But Sussex also has a small population when compared with some other counties.
eg. Sussex 1.6m: Yorkshire 5.23m (2011 figures).
And why Sussex have partnerships with Oxfordshire and Guernsey. History shows that youngsters often come through in waves. RMJ, Kirtley and Lewry. Yardy, Prior, Nash. Perhaps, we are still awaiting a new wave although Machan, Hobden and Finch look promising. Not really: West Sussex alone has a greater population than Nottinghamshire (and Northants, Leicestershire and Gloucestershire among others), and the combined population of West and East is about the same as Kent and Essex, much more than Surrey and Hampshire. I think there are lots of other factors to consider before we get down to sheer numbers. Some of those factors will include: provision of playing field facilities in schools throughout the county, popularity of other sports and presence of major sporting arenas that will draw away young talent, structure of league cricket within the county, availability of employment that offers sufficient time off to develop sporting skills, lots of other socio-cultural indicators. I do agree that we shouldn't knee-jerk into "Sussex bad, Yorkshire (or Durham) good" without looking at the rounder picture. The fact remains that we have no obvious prospects for fast bowling at present and will need to get someone from outside the county whilst the next lot of 15-17 year olds are in development. The fraudster would hate this, but them's the facts.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 16:51:03 GMT
Insightful post by HH. And, in fact, many of our top cricketers come through the public schools which is a kind of alternative academy system in its own right. Somerset, for example, hardly need their own academy when they've got Millfield school to do the job for them.
And Sussex has had its fair share of players from Ardingley/Hurstpierpoint/Lancing/St Bede's etc in recent years.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 17:20:05 GMT
The other reason we have so few quality fast bowlers today is that fast bowling is bloody hard work, an occupation prone to stress injury and with a pretty short career span. Why would any talented teenage cricketer chose to grunt and sweat in weary toil as a fast bowler when he could be the dashing bastsman elegantly flashing the blade?
It is why in the days of amateurs and professionals, the Gentlemen were all batsmen (Gubby Allen is the obvious exception, and was such an awful,ghastly man I wouldn't want to hold him up as an example of anything). The great fast bowlers, from Larwood to Trueman, were working-class lads for whom bowling 20 overs a day and getting blisters and sore shins was preferable to a life down the pit. It takes a strange sort of boy in the soft modern world who wants to be Liam Plunkett rather than Joe Root or Boyd Rankin rather than Alex Hales.
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Post by coverpoint on Sept 30, 2014 18:19:38 GMT
Garton is the best seam bowling prospect coming through between the age of 14 and 20. Forget Whittingham, Sakande, Moses and Grant. In 2012 Garton took 21 wickets and finished third top wicket taker, in 2013 26 wickets and second top wicket taker and in 2014 30 wickets and top wicket taker for the Academy and various age groups. My biggest concern is how we are going to replace Garton in the Under 17s as none of Smith, Twine, Fazakerley, Piper or Bradley look even close to being able to fill his shoes. The Under 17s are likely to rely on spin next season with Collard, Doram, Rattle and Oxley taking 78 wickets @ 20 between them last season compared with only 24 wickets @ 54 between the five seamers. The batting could be a problem too with Haines certainly the stand out batsman.
Academy wise Garton, Haines and Cammish look excellent prospects. Collard, Doram, Jenner and Rattle deserve to join them in the Academy. Hudson-Prentice made real progress last season and deserves to be offered a contract. Yardy, Prior and Nash were offered contracts on the back of considerably less.
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Post by hhsussex on Sept 30, 2014 19:45:13 GMT
Garton is the best seam bowling prospect coming through between the age of 14 and 20. Forget Whittingham, Sakande, Moses and Grant. In 2012 Garton took 21 wickets and finished third top wicket taker, in 2013 26 wickets and second top wicket taker and in 2014 30 wickets and top wicket taker for the Academy and various age groups. My biggest concern is how we are going to replace Garton in the Under 17s as none of Smith, Twine, Fazakerley, Piper or Bradley look even close to being able to fill his shoes. The Under 17s are likely to rely on spin next season with Collard, Doram, Rattle and Oxley taking 78 wickets @ 20 between them last season compared with only 24 wickets @ 54 between the five seamers. The batting could be a problem too with Haines certainly the stand out batsman. Academy wise Garton, Haines and Cammish look excellent prospects. Collard, Doram, Jenner and Rattle deserve to join them in the Academy. Hudson-Prentice made real progress last season and deserves to be offered a contract. Yardy, Prior and Nash were offered contracts on the back of considerably less. coverpoint, you have excellent knowledge of the progress of the young cricketers and its good to have your input. Why do you think that the recent generation of faster bowlers has failed, or is drying up? What do you think are the causes, and could anything be done to remedy this?
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Post by fraudster on Sept 30, 2014 19:48:46 GMT
The other reason we have so few quality fast bowlers today is that fast bowling is bloody hard work, an occupation prone to stress injury and with a pretty short career span. Why would any talented teenage cricketer chose to grunt and sweat in weary toil as a fast bowler when he could be the dashing bastsman elegantly flashing the blade? It is why in the days of amateurs and professionals, the Gentlemen were all batsmen (Gubby Allen is the obvious exception, and was such an awful,ghastly man I wouldn't want to hold him up as an example of anything). The great fast bowlers, from Larwood to Trueman, were working-class lads for whom bowling 20 overs a day and getting blisters and sore shins was preferable to a life down the pit. It takes a strange sort of boy in the soft modern world who wants to be Liam Plunkett rather than Joe Root or Boyd Rankin rather than Alex Hales. No. Proper pacemen haven't a choice. They either bowl seam or don't play. Most quality seamers over the years cannot hold a bat, let alone 'elegantly flash the blade.' I don't agree with that post at all - do better. Dunno why two people have liked it, well I know why one has. What of Whittingham these days? Hasn't progressed yet but if he has the pace some say he has he's worth sticking with. Sakande's made some strides, I'm told. Anyway, we have Hatchett and Hobden who are getting there and this Garton lad maybe next in line. Sounds like an alright return to me. What did we have after Kirtley, Lewry and M-J? That is Hatchett isn't it? Quite a gap. Slightly premature to be bemoaning our lack of young seamers I reckon. HH, you idle goight - We new of Bird yesterday and I already commented on it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 19:52:19 GMT
Stuff and nonsense, fraudster. You have clearly never coached a team of schoolboys so can be forgiven for not knowing what you're talking about!
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Post by fraudster on Sept 30, 2014 19:55:31 GMT
Stuff and nonsense, fraudster. You have clearly never coached a team of schoolboys so can be forgiven for not knowing what you're talking about! It doesn't matter what you want BM, you're either a natural or you ain't. You can't teach Ambrose to be Richards, or vice-versa. Come on HH, hit me with it. Serves you right for having such a similar name, maybe.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 20:21:31 GMT
At 12, 13 or 14 most talented young cricketers think they are all-rounders. When it comes to making a decision about which discipline they will concertrate on, these days most chose batting. Whether those who opt for bat over ball would have made decent fast bowlers we will never know, but some surely would. And whether they would have the strength and physique to become genuine quick bowlers is often not evident until they hit 15 or 16 years old, by when it may be too late and they have decided they want to open the batting.
If you take any bunch of cricketers in that 15 and 16 age group, you will find six or seven batsmen to every one bowler. And it follows through from there, and is one of the reasons why English first-class cricket has far richer batting than bowling resources at present.
You say "you can't teach Ambrose to be Richards, or vice-versa" and you certainly can't teach genius. But the game is littered with batsmen-turned-bowlers (Darren Stevens didn't bowl at all for the first half dozen years of his career but this season bowled more than 500 overs) and with bowlers-turned-batsmen (Bob Woolmer started as a seam bowler who batted at number nine or ten and ended up as as England opening bat, while the spinners Scott Borthwick and Liam Dawsion started as spcialist bowlers batting at nine or ten and now bat at three and four for their counties).
The idea that "you're either a natural or you ain't" is a romantic myth, my old friend. The most talented kids with decent hand-eye cordination and an aptitude for the game can mostly be coached to become either a batsman or a bowler. Most chose batting, for the reasons set out above - bowling is a far more physically taxing discipline (which is why the ECB has strict rules preventing young players from bowling more than a certain number of overs per day both in matches and in practice sessions) and the rewards are perceived as less glamorous than hitting the ball out of the park.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 21:30:58 GMT
Here are the ECB directions on how many overs young fast bowlers are permitted to bowl, both in matches and in practice sessions.
Directives for matches: AGE GROUP MAX/SPELL MAX/DAY Up to 13: 5 overs per spell: 10 overs per day U14, U15: 6 overs per spell: 12 overs per day U16, U17: 7 overs per spell: 18 overs per day U18, U19: 7 overs per spell: 18 overs per day
Directives for practice sessions: AGE: MAX BALLS/SESSION MAX SESSIONS/WEEK Up to 13:30 balls per session: 2 sessions per week U14, U15:36 balls per session: 2 sessions per week U16, U17:36 balls per session: 3 sessions per week U18, U19:42 balls per session: 3 sessions per week
So in net practice a 19 year old fast bowler is only permitted to bowl 42 balls in perhaps a two hour session, three times a week - and we wonder why we have so few top class fast bowlers???
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Post by andrenel on Sept 30, 2014 22:16:54 GMT
Looks like a useful ashes series warm up in English conditions for Jackson Bird. Very good bit of business for both Hampshire and the Aussies, unless it's curtailed by injury.
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