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Post by hhsussex on Sept 11, 2015 7:36:01 GMT
A reminder that when George Dobell isn't spinning out copy to make a sensationalist point he can be one of the most insightful columnists around ( www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2015/content/story/919441.html). Amongst many good points made there are a fewthat may resonate for Sussex followers : "the willingness to put their trust in youth has encouraged developing players who see opportunities and created an environment where players who came through the youth system together are now representing the senior team." "There is always going to be a place for bringing in players from outside and, in the likes of Brooks, and now David Willey, Yorkshire have recruited wisely. .....other clubs ........ seem reluctant to trust their young players and very ready to dip into the transfer market, Yorkshire have a policy of only doing so if it can add value." "when Martyn Moxon, Yorkshire's director of cricket, was asked what the key to this success was, one of the first things he mentioned was "the pathway" to the first team. By that he means the talent spotting, coaching and development conducted by clubs and coaches - many of them unpaid volunteers - around the region which feed into the Yorkshire youth teams. " Against this he still drops the odd clanger, citing Shahzad and Robinson's release as examples of players who have "abused trust" by not embracing "the work ethic and values of the club". Anyone who has seen Ollie Robinson bowl this season almost until his legs drop off, or can remember the freshness and vitality of the tremendous all-round commitment of Shahzad in those early games before injury - bowling, batting, in the field shouting and encouraging - can only give a wry smile at Gillespie's stubbornness and consider that Yorkshire's resources are very great indeed for talent like this to be discarded so lightly. |
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Post by freddy838 on Sept 11, 2015 14:35:19 GMT
Yorkshire do seem to have the perfect formula at the moment. A belated well done to Andy Hodd who has contributed a fair bit to another championship.
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Post by coverpoint on Sept 11, 2015 18:50:57 GMT
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Post by jonboy on Sept 11, 2015 19:54:20 GMT
A large squad, a productive academy, and sign the best players from outside. Isn't that what every club wants to do? If you don't have the youngsters coming through, or you don't have the resources to sign players like David Willey, then you have to try and find other ways of doing it. Here at Sussex, we don't have a conveyor belt of young talent, and we struggle to entice the top notch players who become available, so we end up having to mix and match.
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Post by hhsussex on Sept 11, 2015 20:28:46 GMT
A large squad, a productive academy, and sign the best players from outside. Isn't that what every club wants to do? If you don't have the youngsters coming through, or you don't have the resources to sign players like David Willey, then you have to try and find other ways of doing it. Here at Sussex, we don't have a conveyor belt of young talent, and we struggle to entice the top notch players who become available, so we end up having to mix and match. jonboy, you seem to have missed the point, so let's have another go, shall we? "the willingness to put their trust in youth has encouraged developing players who see opportunities and created an environment where players who came through the youth system together are now representing the senior team."[Not about a large squad necessarily but about putting trust in young talent]
"There is always going to be a place for bringing in players from outside and, in the likes of Brooks, and now David Willey, Yorkshire have recruited wisely. .....other clubs ........ seem reluctant to trust their young players and very ready to dip into the transfer market, Yorkshire have a policy of only doing so if it can add value."[Not about having infinite resources, but about choosing wisely] "when Martyn Moxon, Yorkshire's director of cricket, was asked what the key to this success was, one of the first things he mentioned was "the pathway" to the first team. By that he means the talent spotting, coaching and development conducted by clubs and coaches - many of them unpaid volunteers - around the region which feed into the Yorkshire youth teams. "[How to create the conveyor belt: the talent is there, find it, nurture it and use it well] It is ridiculous and insulting to put up the excuse that Sussex "doesn't have a large catchment area", it "isn't a big county", we "don't have the resources". In the hugely prosperous commuting south-east, with the big attraction of Brighton, the absurd number of pampered minor public schools with their wealthy endowed grounds, the excellent transport connections, there is every reason why Sussex should produce and benefit from a large number of talented, healthy individuals well-equipped to play cricket from an early age and with every incentive to succeed. Many come into the youth system, few emerge as first team players. I don't think that we fail to entice top-notch players: unlike Yorkshire we have no debts and we certainly offer competitive salaries and an attractive place in which to ply their trade, as well as some of the finest 4 am pizza parlours in the country. Rather, it seems that the players we get often fail to live up to billing: they have injury problems, they prove difficult to manage, or they are hampered by their past. |
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jim
2nd XI player
Posts: 182
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Post by jim on Sept 11, 2015 23:00:22 GMT
Some other factors
Population - Yorkshire 5.3m Sussex 1.5m
League Clubs - Yorkshire 750 Sussex 245
Amount spent on Player Salary Bill Y Higher S Lower
Cost of Housing for a players salary Y Less S Higher
Looking back ECB produce a yearly FCC financial analysis - Sussex is the only county rated in the high performance/ lower salary quadrant and has done so regularly.
By contrast Surrey is in the opposite quadrant= high salary and low performance. Most of the other are in the area of low salary/low performance or high salary/high performance
In any financial measure of income Sussex is ranked c 9th of the 18 FCCs apart from commercial income where we rated 6th in 2014
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Post by fraudster on Sept 11, 2015 23:40:33 GMT
Against this he still drops the odd clanger, citing Shahzad and Robinson's release as examples of players who have "abused trust" by not embracing "the work ethic and values of the club".
How's that a clanger from GD? He's not talking about their approach at Sussex.
The thing I resent the most about our approach to picking a side is that Robinson would sooner pick some average schmuck from anywhere than give a run to a teenager. I'm totally on board with the likes of Shahzad & Joyce coming in but look at all the has-beens, never has-beens and second rate flops we've brought in over recent years rather than put in a grad. Our lads have to be extraordinary at an early age to get a chance, and perform from the off. You're not allowed to cock-up unless you're a senior player in this side. The biggest difference between Yorks and Sussex is that Sussex is a tough place to start if you're young - but not the only difference.
It could be by luck as much as anything that Yorks have quality coming through, like the Aussie's 90s era compared with now, but you don't have much to lose by playing a couple of lads unless you're gonna play established talent instead, rather than established flops or journeymen. Our approach is short-sighted, negative and stubborn - three words that can be strongly associated with other aspects of Sussex cricket under this management in my view.
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Post by jonboy on Sept 12, 2015 6:56:54 GMT
It will be interesting to see how we deal with the recruitment issues this winter. Likely departures mean that we could have six or seven squad places to fill, so what should the club do? Quality players like Prior and Yardy, both Sussex produced I might add, will have to be replaced. We also have very specific needs, regarding shortcomings in the squad, an opening bat, a front line spinner, and probably most important, an all rounder to balance the side. This will allow us to play five bowlers.
If we wish to follow Yorkshire's model, and which club wouldn't, this is an excellent opportunity to put that into practice. In reality though, can we? First of all, we have to look at who is ready to step up from the academy. Looking at things from the outside, there doesn't seem to be too many candidates ready to step up. Perhaps in a year or so's time, there might be more, we certainly seem to have some talent in the 15-17 group. Of those who might step up now, perhaps we could take a chance on Garton and Salt. Sakande who is slightly older has turned in some useful performances this year for the seconds, so he might be considered. None of the three have produced the type of stats that demand a first team contract, and an academy plus contract is probably more realistic. However, we are need to fill six or seven vacancies, and it would be totally unrealistic to think that we could recruit that many from outside. Already, a compromise.
So we've filled three of the squad places with our own youngsters, now how to we address the rest? To follow the Yorkies way, we target four of the best players available to bring the squad up to scratch. Will there be that many quality players available, in the positions we are seeking, and will they all want to come to Sussex? We should, hopefully, by then, have an overseas vacancy which might make things slightly easier. Finances permitting, we may be able to get in there, and secure another List A player, if there is someone available who fits our needs. The remaining places will have to be filled by a couple of left field, bargain signings, who may, or may not work out. Is that another compromise? It's what Yorkshire did with signing of that Northants cast off, Middlebrook.
There is much to be admired about what Yorkshire have done, and if their academy keeps producing and they can add one quality player from outside, every year, they will remain strong. Personally I don't think our transition was managed very well. Yes we had a lot of quality players retire around the same time, and that was always going to be difficult to deal with, but maybe more could have been done in the preceding years. Once again we have lost a lot of quality, RHB, Prior and now Yardy, and we also need to prepare ourselves for the the departures of, arguably, our best batsman, and bowler, in Joyce and Magoffin. Hopefully not just yet, but we need to be mindful that the time is coming when they will hang up their boots.
So in short, what we need to do this winter is, put our faith in youngsters, who possibly aren't quite ready, add a couple of top quality signings that will probably stretch us financially, and hope we can come up trumps again with a couple of bargain bin signings. It's not easy is it.
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Post by joe on Sept 12, 2015 9:02:39 GMT
Signing Salt, Garton and/or Sakande won't help the first team shortcomings because they won't be played, they will languish in the second team like Finch and Jackson.
The new signings that Sussex need next season are a new head coach, new academy director and new captain in all formats. People with dynamism, energy, hunger and forward thinking a la Yorkshire. Success is infectious and starts at the top.
I don't know Mark Robinson personally, I'm sure he's a nice bloke, but I have watched/ listened to a lot of his interviews and I'm sorry but he is almost always inaudible and invariably boring and emotionless. I can't imagine his pre match speeches in the dressing room can be very inspiring or rousing. As others have commented, if he was a football manager he would have been sacked years ago!
Perhaps a stint in Div 2 would be good for the club, cut out all the dead wood, regroup and come back fighting in 2017!
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Post by flashblade on Sept 12, 2015 9:22:17 GMT
Signing Salt, Garton and/or Sakande won't help the first team shortcomings because they won't be played, they will languish in the second team like Finch and Jackson. The new signings that Sussex need next season are a new head coach, new academy director and new captain in all formats. People with dynamism, energy, hunger and forward thinking a la Yorkshire. Success is infectious and starts at the top. I don't know Mark Robinson personally, I'm sure he's a nice bloke, but I have watched/ listened to a lot of his interviews and I'm sorry but he is almost always inaudible and invariably boring and emotionless. I can't imagine his pre match speeches in the dressing room can be very inspiring or rousing. As others have commented, if he was a football manager he would have been sacked years ago! Perhaps a stint in Div 2 would be good for the club, cut out all the dead wood, regroup and come back fighting in 2017! Good summary, joe. If there aren't some serious, meaningful changes before next season, I will lose further interest in SCCC. I hope they don't just promote Robbo to Director of Cricket - what an expensive fudge that would be. Yorkshire have enjoyed a great revival, since they appointed a new, dynamic coach from outside the county. Go figure. |
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Post by fraudster on Sept 12, 2015 9:31:06 GMT
You don't work in insurance do you JB? Effectively, we're not really missing Yardy, H-B and Prior. Yardy and H-B haven't been nailed on to start in the last couple of years and Prior has hardly played. For me our situation is more simple than you say. I'd say it boils down to two things - fitness and Mags' status. Shahzad and Jordan specifically for fitness. The best way to get in tried and tested quality is through an OS and we only need one quality signing, a spinner or an opening bat. I don't think we need the all-rounder you're talking about while we have Brown, Jordan, Robinson and Shahzad. Also Zaidi and Beer, if we're keeping them, and young H-P.
Personally, I would look to sign one big player, an OS opening bat. I would bolster the squad with five junior pros - Garton, Whittingham, Sakande, Salt and Haines. There's absolutely nothing to lose with that. We already have ten homies, that would make 15 - Yorks have about 20 out of 30. We could go into the season with a very good looking first team and back-up of Finch, Salt, Haines, Jackson, Beer, Rippon (according to our squad on the BBC website), H-P, Anyon, Hobden, Hatchett, Garton, Whittingham and Sakande. All that is with playing the extra bat and four seamers in April. Plenty good.
Apart from the OS thing and our fitness luck, which we're due a bout of relatively good, all that's pretty simple. The OS thing could even be really simple. In fact, given Mags' age and our long line of seamers within that squad, I would consider going the batter route even if we could only have one.
Oh yeah, and with Joe's post in mind, none of what anyone believes should happen will unless Robbo changes his outlook dramatically or is replaced. Couldn't agree more about captain and coach, frankly. What an uninspiring pair.
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Post by jonboy on Sept 12, 2015 9:39:23 GMT
I can see no advantages in being relegated. With players coming to the end of their contracts, following on from the high profile retirements, there will be a rebuilding job, whatever division we're in. It will be easier to sign better players when we are in the first division, that's for sure. Joe, as someone who takes an interest in the academy, which of the academy players to you think should have been playing for the firsts? Certainly, in the championship, only Sakande could maybe have been considered, given our seamer shortage. Even then, that would almost be by default, as it's not as if his performances for the seconds have been demanding inclusion. For what it's worth, I do think some of these lads could have been included in the 50 over line ups. Yes in the end they were, but perhaps they could have been given the odd game earlier. It's all very well claiming that these youngsters should have been given a chance, but you have to earn your right to be part of the first team set up, and quite frankly, none of them have been making an overwhelming case for inclusion. Hopefully, come the seasons end, we can lose some of the older guard, and clear a pathway for the youngsters. Ultimately though, it's down to them to put in the performances that will get them selected.
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Post by joe on Sept 12, 2015 10:08:31 GMT
I can see no advantages in being relegated. With players coming to the end of their contracts, following on from the high profile retirements, there will be a rebuilding job, whatever division we're in. It will be easier to sign better players when we are in the first division, that's for sure. Joe, as someone who takes an interest in the academy, which of the academy players to you think should have been playing for the firsts? Certainly, in the championship, only Sakande could maybe have been considered, given our seamer shortage. Even then, that would almost be by default, as it's not as if his performances for the seconds have been demanding inclusion. For what it's worth, I do think some of these lads could have been included in the 50 over line ups. Yes in the end they were, but perhaps they could have been given the odd game earlier. It's all very well claiming that these youngsters should have been given a chance, but you have to earn your right to be part of the first team set up, and quite frankly, none of them have been making an overwhelming case for inclusion. Hopefully, come the seasons end, we can lose some of the older guard, and clear a pathway for the youngsters. Ultimately though, it's down to them to put in the performances that will get them selected. Admittedly, you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear but who's to blame there? Perhaps the academy director/scouts, who go looking for young talent, aren't up to the job? Perhaps the wrong lads are chosen for the academy? Or perhaps the talent is there but not developed properly? A coach should be someone who instills self belief, who pushes someone to their best, is a good role model and an inspiration. A good question to ask is whether any of our current academy players would get into the Yorkshire academy? The answer is probably not many. If you stick with the same failing system you will inevitably continue to fail. Intersetingly our current academy team ( made up of some academy players when available and a lot of younger 'prospects' ) didn't win a single game this season in the Sussex league. |
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Post by coverpoint on Sept 12, 2015 16:41:16 GMT
To be fair Joe I didn't take much notice of the performances in the Sussex League as I feel their performances in Under 17 matches against players from other counties of a similar age is a more accurate barometer of where they are. Certainly in Billings, Collard, Gordon, Oxley, Nick Smith plus Ellen Burt, Tara Norris and Flora Bertwistle the talent is there to supplement Haines plus the league of nations trio of Doram, Jenner and Rawlins. I agree a new Captain, Director of Cricket and Academy Coach are needed. It says something about your Academy coach and his ability to develop younger players when you have to go Bermuda, Holland and Jersey to find suitable players.
Fraudstar - Haines won't be offered a contract as he is only 16.
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Post by jonboy on Sept 12, 2015 17:17:35 GMT
Don't have a problem with casting the net further afield, when it comes to academy recruitment. On the contrary, the more talented youngsters we can get into the group, the better. As I said, the next batch, 15-17 look really promising, and hopefully a few of them will progress through to the first team.
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