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Post by leedsgull on Mar 2, 2015 16:56:37 GMT
Flashblade The Auditors make no reference to depreciation in their notes. I received my copy of the report through the post this morning so am unable to post any link. I expect Cricinfo will pick up on these figures at some point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 18:02:19 GMT
Not a high risk investment if the loan is secured against the ground, which is what most, if not all, of the heavily indebted counties seem to have done - as set out in Canterbury City Council's published 'risk assessment register' covering its loans to Kent CCC, for example. Depreciation clearly is an accounting technicality - Yorkshire have proved it to be so by the way they apply varying depreciation terms at will. And the auditors have signed off on the Yorks accounts without qualification, so it must be acceptable accounting practice to do so. Sussex should use the technicality and change its depreciation period to 125 years. That would make the accounts look much healthier!
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Post by flashblade on Mar 2, 2015 18:23:01 GMT
Not a high risk investment if the loan is secured against the ground, which is what most, if not all, of the heavily indebted counties seem to have done - as set out in Canterbury City Council's published 'risk assessment register' covering its loans to Kent CCC, for example. Still higher risk than a bank deposit, because how would Graves be repaid if the club ran out of cash? The club would have to persuade some other mug investor to replace the loan - or sell some property?Depreciation clearly is an accounting technicality - Yorkshire have proved it to be so by the way they apply varying depreciation terms at will. And the auditors have signed off on the Yorks accounts without qualification, so it must be acceptable accounting practice to do so. Are you downplaying the validity of depreciation because it's a "technicality"? My car is very technical, but I don't under-estimate it's technical worth, just because I don't understand how it works. Who believes that any sporting structure has a commercial life span of 125 years? That's taking the mickey, IMO.Sussex should use the technicality and change its depreciation period to 125 years. That would make the accounts look much healthier!
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Post by leedsgull on Mar 2, 2015 19:04:56 GMT
In the case of the inappropriately named Carnegie Pavilion it probably will last 125 years since it is in virtually pristine condition because the Yorkshire Members are not allowed anywhere near it!
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Post by hhsussex on Mar 2, 2015 19:38:16 GMT
In the 2013 Yorkshire Annual Report and Accounts, which is published on the internet here www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fyorkshireccc.com%2Fuploads%2Fdownload%2F20140228073343_2013AnnualReportsandAccounts.pdf&ei=vbT0VN_HNOOP7AaGqIHwDw&usg=AFQjCNEUGLQsv8KC9ItuYdGlUAqX4t194Q&bvm=bv.87269000,d.ZGU&cad=rja,the statement is made that "(c) Carnegie Pavilion The Club’s contribution towards the design and build cost of the Carnegie Pavilion is £3m, of which £1.5m is payable over 20 years under a 125 year lease agreement. The £3m, together with the associated legal, professional and capital fit out costs of the areas within the Pavilion that the Club occupies, have been capitalised and depreciated over the 125 year lease term. The £1.5m, payable under the lease agreement has been treated as a finance lease within the financial statements with the capital element reported within Creditors (Finance leases), and the interest element charged to the Income and Expenditure Account on a straight line basis over the 20 year term."The other buildings and assets covered in depreciation in those accounts are depreciated at 50 years (buildings) and from 4-10 years (plant and equipment) with other items, such as computers at 2 years. So Yorkshire have depreciated far more slowly than the generally accepted convention of 30 -50 years at most, and taken that to the end of the lease period. It is legal, but not very straightforward. Their auditors state: MATTERS ON WHICH WE ARE REQUIRED TO REPORT BY EXCEPTION We have nothing to report in respect of the following. Under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts 1965 to 2003 we are required to report to you if, in our opinion: - a satisfactory system of control over transactions has not been maintained; or - the association has not kept proper accounting records; or - the financial statements are not in agreement with the books of account; or - we have not received all the information and explanations we need for our audit.
This is a matter of opinion about what is meant by "a satisfactory system of control over transactions". Somerset's auditors, faced with their bald statement of the EBITDA without acknowledgment of any principle of depreciation over freehold, rather than leasehold buildings, have said repeatedly that "it is not possible to quantify the effect on the net book value of freehold buildings if depreciation had been provided on all buildings since their acquisition". Of course, one of the issues here is the difference in treatment between freehold and leasehold, which I'm sure flashblade will comment on,but it does seem that Yorkshire are playing with a scimit ar, if not a hockeystick, rather than the straight bat that their members deserve.
It doesn't do anyone any favours to hide away from the fact that assets have a limited lifespan. It isn't a technicality and there are very well established and widely observed standards that exist to protect the gullible from those who for their own reasons - and here we may speculate and ponder the complex realms of taxation as it affects loans made through family trusts and other instruments - wish to present a somewhat rosier financial picture than obtains. That is Yorkshire's problem and certainly not a model for Sussex. I know this is a King Charles' head for borderman, so perhaps it might be easier just to say that the two cases are quite different: the Spen Cama and associated buildings are not leasehold and so there is no issue about 125 years. Sussex have reported accurately and in striking difference to Somerset, and will therefore be better placed in the future a) Because they are realistic about the effect of depreciation on their working capital b) They are thus more likely to be attractive to a lender, if and when the time comes, as being a better risk for repayment Now let's talk about cricket.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Mar 9, 2015 20:43:40 GMT
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Mar 19, 2015 23:26:10 GMT
How strange when county cricket is on the back-foot that a club becomes bigger than its environment and is given special treatment by the city council. It could only happen in Wales where the 'Tafia Mafia' hold sway! www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-31964175
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 0:35:30 GMT
Kent show Sussex how to put a positive spin on the annual accounts.
Headline announcement today: profit for 2014 of £1,250,655.
However, this is an EBITDA figure and so doesn't include any sum for for depreciation.
In the small print the figure after depreciation reduces the 'profit' to £658,430.
But this 'profit' also converts the full £1 million ECB soft loan into income, rather than showing it as an exceptional item, or apportioning it over the four year period over which I believe it is clawed back.
Take out the ECB 'soft' loan and add in the depreciation charge... well, you can do the math but the colour of the ink changes from black to red.
But full credit to Kent for presenting the figures in such a positive light at a time when county cricket and its viability going forward is in desperate need of talking up rather than talking down. I wish Sussex would follow Kent's example.
Seems like Kent are in a bit of trouble over the Canterbury council loans, though. The £1.5 million short term loan made in 2012 that should have been repaid this month has been exteded for a maximum of a further 12 months - but the conditions imposed are draconian, and include bringing forward repayments on a substantial proportion of their second loan (originally made on a 30 year term) to 2018 and 2020.
As a result, Kent will be the only one of the 18 counties not to employ an overseas star in 2015. Chairman George Kennedy says: “We’ll not have an overseas player this year – we simply can’t afford it. An overseas player would cost way in excess of £100,000 by the time you pay, match fees, accommodation, travel, a car. It’s very expensive.”
He goes on to say that bringing back Matt Coles is as good as signing an overseas star. No pressure on young Matt there, then!
But not signing a Test quality opening bowler is a real blow because I was hoping Kent would challenge for promotion out of Div Two this season. Sadly I fear their toothless bowling attack means they haven't got a hope in hell against the likes of Lancs, Surrey and Essex. However good a season Coles has - and as you know, I believe him to be a potential England player - he can't do it all on his own. And as Rob Key said on Sky the other day, Kent's young players would benefit enormously from playing with a top overseas Test star; he noted that in his early career at Kent, he'd had people like Steve Waugh to learn from and then ruefully added, "These days they have to make do with me".
Given that all of the other bottom feeders have made big name signings - Derbys have Guptil, Dilshan and Rimmngton, Leics have Cosgrove, Elliott and Clint McKay and Northants have Kkleinveldt, Afridi and Richard Levi -it's a bitter pill to swallow for Kent supporters who were hoping that after years of austerity, 2015 might have seen the first green shoots of recovery.
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Post by flashblade on Mar 20, 2015 8:00:55 GMT
BM: But full credit to Kent for presenting the figures in such a positive light at a time when county cricket and its viability going forward is in desperate need of talking up rather than talking down. I wish Sussex would follow Kent's example.
History is littered with failed businesses that overstated their profits in an attempt to fool 3rd parties about their true financial position.
Tell the truth and shame the devil!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 8:56:31 GMT
History is littered with failed businesses that overstated their profits in an attempt to fool 3rd parties about their true financial position. Equally businesses need to present a confident narrative if they are to attract the customers and sponsors necessary for them to survive and grow. I'd say that's what Kent is doing. It's all a matter of presentation. Anyone who reads beyond the headline figure in both the Sussex and Kent accounts can find the EBITDA figure and the figure after depreciation etc. So both counties are 'telling the truth' ; they're just looking at the two sets of figures through opposite ends of the telescope, one emphasising the positive and the other emphasising a more negative calculation. My fear would be that county cricket clubs risk going out of business if they present their annual accounts in a way that casts doubt on whether they will still be around in a year's time; it becomes a self-fulfilling, shoot-yourself-in-the-foot prophecy because spectators, sponsors and suppliers alike are going to walk away from something that is perceived as a failing enterprise. I have plenty of criticisms of the poor decision-making that has characterised Kent CCC over the past half dozen years; but the positive way they present their accounts is, in my view, one of the things they've got right. (Although I'd have to agree that there is a reality disconnect in claiming a £1.2 million annual profit and at the same time announcing that you haven't got £100k to sign an overseas player!)
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Post by hhsussex on Mar 20, 2015 9:08:40 GMT
History is littered with failed businesses that overstated their profits in an attempt to fool 3rd parties about their true financial position. Equally businesses need to present a confident narrative if they are to attract the customers and sponsors necessary for them to survive and grow. I'd say that's what Kent is doing. It's all a matter of presentation. Anyone who reads beyond the headline figure in both the Sussex and Kent accounts can find the EBITDA figure and the figure after depreciation etc. So both counties are 'telling the truth' ; they're just looking at the two sets of figures through opposite ends of the telescope, one emphasising the positive and the other emphasising a more negative calculation. My fear would be that county cricket clubs risk going out of business if they present their annual accounts in a way that casts doubt on whether they will still be around in a year's time; it becomes a self-fulfilling, shoot-yourself-in-the-foot prophecy because spectators, sponsors and suppliers alike are going to walk away from something that is perceived as a failing enterprise. I have plenty of criticisms of the poor decision-making that has characterised Kent CCC over the past half dozen years; but the positive way they present their accounts is, in my view, one of the things they've got right. (Although I'd have to agree that there is a reality disconnect in claiming a £1.2 million annual profit and at the same time announcing that you haven't got £100k to sign an overseas player!) That's pretty much a summary of the Osborne position earlier this week: make it all look rosy and never mind where the £12 billion worth of cuts have to come from 'cos we aren't going to tell you till we start slashing. Cricket doesn't need false dawns and carefully-boosted optimism anymore than politics. What matters is the truth, and there is little risk of going out of business because you are conducting yourself in a financially prudent way,in fact investors and suppliers go for that sort of thing big time. What does become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and is something that Sussex and other clubs must be very careful about is to be so zealous of protecting their own niche by denying the possibility of change, refusing to admit that other institutions may have a part to play, that they succeed in dwindling and finally shutting off their own supporter base. The over-optimistic presentation of results is as much a part of that strategy as is the concept that everything in the 18-team championship is fine and everyone there is pretty much equal apart from the inconvenient fact of bigger stadiums and Test match revenues.
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Post by flashblade on Mar 20, 2015 9:29:22 GMT
BM - at the risk of getting technical, it's time someone blew the whistle on EBITDA. Here is a very brief critique from an investment house: www.investopedia.com/terms/e/ebitda.aspNote that EBITDA is not a recognised measure by normal accounting standards, and this extract is noteworthy: "Consequently, EBITDA is often used as an accounting gimmick to dress up a company's earnings. When using this metric, it's key that investors also focus on other performance measures to make sure the company is not trying to hide something with EBITDA."
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Post by theleopard on Mar 20, 2015 9:34:01 GMT
it becomes a self-fulfilling, shoot-yourself-in-the-foot prophecy because spectators, sponsors and suppliers alike are going to walk away from something that is perceived as a failing enterprise. Well, county cricket has certainly been guilty of that with regard to limited-overs cricket. I can't even remember some of the incarnations since 2000, but it's been something like "This is the last year we're doing the National League... This is the last year we're doing the Pro40... this is the last year we're doing the Pro40 (version 2)." Now the RL50 is under fire after just one season. At this rate they'll be announcing the scrapping of a competition before it's even started. And I'm only half joking.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Mar 20, 2015 10:23:13 GMT
I foolishly watched the excellent accompanying video that goes with the Glamorgan "city council ransom" story before going to bed last night and felt so incensed, I had difficulty falling asleep.
Have you watched that video?
Glamorgan CCC have made a complete mockery of business, fair practice and economic prudence. Due to their disastrous financial dealings, over-borrowing, lack of management skills and business acumen and bidding far too high for Test matches, they find themselves £16m in debt, on the brink of administration, and so have to ransom their City Council and creditors - "bail us out or we go bust!"
Meanwhile, the council has already gone over annual budget by £9m with a £41m shortfall forecast for next year and the local taxpayers find their council tax has soared by 5% and their public services widely cut.
It is a joke!
And why has this come about? Apart from appalling and pie in the sky financial management, let us blame the ECB... again!
It was they who wanted a Test ground in Wales; it was they who wanted the invisible (W) in ECB to come to the international party; it was they who put pressure on the sleepy backwater Glamorgan through the influence of the ECB 'Tafia Mafia' via Morgan and later Morris et al, to turn the under performing county into a prosperous Category A ground.
The club hierarchy were thrown to the lions as they borrowed more and more money on a venture that was way above their remit and experience. And so in 2015, the council, who in hindsight foolishly lent them over £6.4m, have to write down £4.4m or 70% of their debt, otherwise they won't see the return of their remaining £2m.
It is now clear why Hugh Morris left his ECB position and returned to Glamorgan as CEO in an attempt to sort this terrible mess out. Otherwise, the county would have gone into administration leaving the ECB with egg all over their face - especially after the recent hubris from Gordon Hollins and Giles Clarke stating no county would go under during their watch.
An absolute disgrace!
No doubt, the creditors were told that in future, Glamorgan would be given preferential treatment with Test matches and the like. They were given all the blarney about international games bringing large invisible earnings to the area which seem to vary from £1m a day to £5m a day depending on the imagination and guile of the salesman... What do the Cardiff taxpayers think of it all when they pay their 5% extra council tax and see their public services cut, partly because of the money their Council has lost to 'The Swalec'?
Sorry, rant over... no, but wait...
Where does this leave such prudent county clubs like Sussex? Our new club President, David Bowden, and the museum volunteers work their socks off to attract money to develop our excellent museum. What did Glamorgan do? They gained £mms from the National Heritage fund and then borrowed the rest to create theirs. Now, the debt has been swallowed up by a council afraid to put 'The Swalec' into bankruptcy.
My humble suggestion to Sussex CCC is "borrow, borrow, borrow" until the sun ends, throw caution to the wind, two-fingers to financial prudence, because it is now obvious, no British council has the balls to place their county cricket ground into administration.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 11:17:57 GMT
Wow - love your passion, s&f.
And I make your conclusion right. Borrow, borrow, borrow. Why not? None of the counties who've taken their local councils for millions will go to the wall because the ransom procedure you outline will work every time.
If a county does fall into administration it won't be one of the profligate borrowers such as Glamorgan or Kent; it will be someone like Leics or Northants who have tried to be prudent and to live within their means without taking on huge indebtedness. What kind of a moral example does that set?
It's not unlike the sub-prime mortgages that caused the financial crash which has led to cripplingly low interest rates that can't even keep pace with inflation for those who saved rather than borrowed. In both cases, the prudent savers are punished and the profligates who borrowed money they couldn't repay (and the moronic bankers who lent it to them) are rewarded by being allowed to escape scot-free.
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