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Post by hhsussex on Nov 6, 2017 17:39:42 GMT
I like the guy, but he presided over a culture at Surrey that ultimately resulted in the loss of a player - although not directly responsible, you have to assume he would have seen the signs, and could have done something to mitigate the issues. Having also seen his work first hand with NL and SL, I wouldn't say that makes him head coach material. Enthusiasm, and ability to do the warm-ups only gets you so far.
And to say he is the "least riskiest" choice (S&F) ranks up there with "best of a bad bunch" - not exactly a ringing endorsement of his credentials. If he happens to be the best candidate after the recruitment process is complete then so be it, but you'd like to think there might be better candidates out there.
Likeable, enthusiastic, limited. Rather like Mark Davis in attributes and that isn't what Sussex need. Forget about hierarchies and whether his face fits, the fact is that he hasn't done much with his career since he stopped playing. Sussex needs fresh faces, clear thinking and creative strategies based on understanding, not just on a rally to join in another cavalry charge.
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Post by howardh on Nov 6, 2017 19:47:51 GMT
HH and Irishexile - debate is healthy; ignorance is bliss and I am a pet orang-u-tan. Having also "seen his work first hand with NL and SL" ... ooh pray tell, so that we can get more of an insight.
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Post by joe on Nov 6, 2017 19:57:34 GMT
I like the guy, but he presided over a culture at Surrey that ultimately resulted in the loss of a player - although not directly responsible, you have to assume he would have seen the signs, and could have done something to mitigate the issues. Having also seen his work first hand with NL and SL, I wouldn't say that makes him head coach material. Enthusiasm, and ability to do the warm-ups only gets you so far.
And to say he is the "least riskiest" choice (S&F) ranks up there with "best of a bad bunch" - not exactly a ringing endorsement of his credentials. If he happens to be the best candidate after the recruitment process is complete then so be it, but you'd like to think there might be better candidates out there.
I think your inferences to Adams having responsibility over the loss of a player are particularly harsh. You wouldn’t blame Robbo for the tragic death of young Hobson would you, even though he was being equally reckless? Im afraid you’re not going to find many top class coaches who are willing to come to a second div club. Adams has a passion for Sussex, he has coaching experience and he’s available. He can’t be any worse than Davis and we gave him 2 years!
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Post by irishexile on Nov 6, 2017 22:49:58 GMT
HH and Irishexile - debate is healthy; ignorance is bliss and I am a pet orang-u-tan. Having also "seen his work first hand with NL and SL" ... ooh pray tell, so that we can get more of an insight. Living in Ireland and having watched a lot of cricket here - including NL and SL in recent years - and seen him "in action" coaching those two teams. That's all.
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Post by irishexile on Nov 6, 2017 22:53:33 GMT
I like the guy, but he presided over a culture at Surrey that ultimately resulted in the loss of a player - although not directly responsible, you have to assume he would have seen the signs, and could have done something to mitigate the issues. Having also seen his work first hand with NL and SL, I wouldn't say that makes him head coach material. Enthusiasm, and ability to do the warm-ups only gets you so far.
And to say he is the "least riskiest" choice (S&F) ranks up there with "best of a bad bunch" - not exactly a ringing endorsement of his credentials. If he happens to be the best candidate after the recruitment process is complete then so be it, but you'd like to think there might be better candidates out there.
I think your inferences to Adams having responsibility over the loss of a player are particularly harsh. You wouldn’t blame Robbo for the tragic death of young Hobson would you, even though he was being equally reckless? Im afraid you’re not going to find many top class coaches who are willing to come to a second div club. Adams has a passion for Sussex, he has coaching experience and he’s available. He can’t be any worse than Davis and we gave him 2 years! No I wouldn't blame Robbo, probably because what happened was an accident, which happened hundreds of miles from Hove, and out of season.
What I was trying to highlight was that a culture had developed at Surrey which indirectly resulted in the death of a player - that player turning up with a shiner at Horsham after several of the team had had a late night in Brighton shortly before the player's death also indicates there might have been a bigger problem there at the time.
I like Chris, but just don't think he's head coach material.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Nov 7, 2017 8:48:42 GMT
The problem with a Chris Adams debate is... it's the same old pros and cons stuff that we read before Davis was appointed. Nothing new or revelatory can be brought to the argument. The biggest mistake Adams made was to move to Surrey which immediately ruffled the feathers of some supporters. It is rather like if Steven Gerrard had gone from Liverpool FC to Manchester United. It would have caused consternation amongst the Merseyside fans. And it is this which, in my view, clouds the issue for some at Sussex and is one of the blots against his name. Then, to add salt to injury, along came the sacrilege of tapping up RHB. 'Jobs for the Boys'? No, he left the club in 2008. Not good enough? Adams promoted Surrey to Division 1 and helped win them an OD trophy. He then joined Holland as their assistant Coach and brought them success. Even his short time of working for Sri Lanka, the side beat England in an away series which they had never achieved before. Wherever Adams goes he brings accomplishment. Rob Johnston, the journalist who gave us the scoop on Mark Davis' departure, has published two stories recently in Cricbuzz about the present Sussex situation. His latest is an article praising Adams to the hilt via the words of the Netherlands Captain, Peter Borren. Borren's accolades are exemplary. Here are a few quotes. "He's obviously got a lot of experience in county cricket and knows how it works. I think Sussex would be bloody lucky to have him. A lot of coaches will always point out what you can't do but Chris always asked us what can we do?" Another: "Chris has had a huge part to play and his impact was immense," he said. "We've changed coaches during that time and had different people involved but his influence on our success has been huge. I really enjoyed his time with us and I know we all became better cricketers because of his involvement." and a third. "He brought a lot of knowledge and experience. Technically, I think he's an excellent coach and tactically, for me as a captain, he helped me out a lot. He spent a lot of time with individuals, especially our batsmen. Chris would end up spending an awful lot of time throwing balls to guys and working on technique. He knows what he's talking about technically." www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/98158/peter-borren-backs-chris-adams-for-role-of-sussex-head-coachThere is no question in my mind, Adams will be in the final three of candidates. Reading between the lines Johnston is suggesting his contact at Sussex CCC has told him that Adams is being looked at with a keen eye from Rob Andrew. But, in the past, Chris has not been lucky. He was pipped to the post by Mark Robinson for the England Womens' job and since leaving Surrey, other counties have not been kind towards him, preferring instead to go in-house for their Head Coach eg. Essex. A major question to ask: Who is presently on the market and available for the Sussex role apart from Adams? Ironically, Johnston suggests Tom Maynard's dad, Matthew, is on hand after stepping down at Somerset. As for others, I have no idea. Perhaps, someone can let us know? www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/98013/sussex-axe-head-coach-mark-davis-county-championship-news
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Post by irishexile on Nov 7, 2017 9:53:53 GMT
I agree that he would be a contender, but I wouldn't want to cherry pick him into the position without a robust recruitment process. Personally, it didn't bother me that he moved to Surrey - the lines were blocked at Sussex with a successful coaching setup in place, so it made sense.
However, his departure from Surrey, as well as what happened with irish cricket (and Yorkshire back in the day) do count against him, and cricket is one of those "industries" where mud sticks and people do talk to each other. That's probably what has hurt his chances when other vacancies have arisen previously. Again I'm not sure consultancy work with NL and SL make him the best candidate out there - for sure they would have helped rebuild his credentials, but he wouldn't have been doing the kind of role that Sussex would expect of their head coach.
The other consideration is that at Surrey he surrounded himself with a large coaching staff and significant budget to recruit the top players - I'm not sure he would have the same kind of resources at his disposal at Sussex. Mindsets of a winning culture, absolutely no problems with his experience there, but drive and the will to win only get you so far.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Nov 7, 2017 10:04:03 GMT
ie,
I can see both sides of the argument, so accept what you say. Adams, at times, does not help himself. His diplomacy skills are somewhat lacking at critical moments. He is more emotion than intellect, yet it is this emotion which brings the passion, drive, desire and success.
Yet, as Rob Andrew has shown, being a successful diplomat is an important attribute to hold in any major sporting organisation and, perhaps, why Adams has not been more successful reaching the higher echelons of cricket coaching. Peter Moores is a good example of what Adams might have achieved. Chris is a team player so long as he's in full charge and why he got on so well with former Club Chairman David Green who let him get on with it. I would suggest Bob Warren is a similar character.
My question though remains. Who is out there to take on the Sussex CCC Coaching role apart from Adams? Particularly, when Essex are seeking a new Head Coach at the same time.
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Post by irishexile on Nov 7, 2017 10:54:40 GMT
ie, I can see both sides of the argument, so accept what you say. Adams, at times, does not help himself. His diplomacy skills are somewhat lacking at critical moments. He is more emotion than intellect, yet it is this emotion which brings the passion, drive, desire and success. Yet, as Rob Andrew has shown, being a successful diplomat is an important attribute to hold in any major sporting organisation and, perhaps, why Adams has not been more successful reaching the higher echelons of cricket coaching. Peter Moores is a good example of what Adams might have achieved. Chris is a team player so long as he's in full charge and why he got on so well with former Club Chairman David Green who let him get on with it. I would suggest Bob Warren is a similar character. My question though remains. Who is out there to take on the Sussex CCC Coaching role apart from Adams? Particularly, when Essex are seeking a new Head Coach at the same time. All of that is fair - the missing piece for Chris to be the Head Coach is perhaps the depth of his coaching ability. Without a bottomless pit of cash, he won't be able to call on specialists to the same degree that he did at Surrey, hence the need for the new Head Coach to be someone prepared to immerse themselves with the coaching side of the job. I would suggest that Peter Moores has been successful at county level primarily because he is a very good coach.
In terms of who else it out there, one would hope that a proper recruitment process would hopefully answer that. Who imagined Rob Andrew as the next CEO when the advert went put out last year? The complication is that Essex are in the same position, but on the other hand it means that those who apply will likely apply for both positions which, in some ways, might mean more people apply for the Sussex role.
Interesting times ahead!
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Post by jonboy on Nov 8, 2017 7:57:48 GMT
Although of course, it is important that we get this apointment right, it cannot hinder our player recruitment The uncertainty at Essex hasn’t stopped them adding to their squad They’ve already added Coles, and are currently negotiating with a new overseas player In fact, most counties are well underway with their player recruitment for 2018 We need to add two or three new players to make the squad really competitive, and cannot wait until a new coach is in place, before we do that Perhaps somebody else is already making those decisions After all, somebody has decided we would release Magoffin and Nash If so, I would like us to move swiftly on with the process of reshaping our own squad
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Nov 8, 2017 8:28:16 GMT
jb,
The whole emphasis of the club's "four year strategic plan" is about bringing through the youngsters and why the recent spate of contract extensions etc.. So, after last season's signings by Davis, I wouldn't have too high hopes on a new roster of top players from outside coming to Sussex during the Winter.
The key now is to find a Davis replacement. That is the most important decision as it will have a huge influence over the success or otherwise of this "strategic plan". But, I must ask again. Apart from Chris Adams, what other Coaches with all the top qualities and experience required are available right now? And if they do exist, would they want to come to a Division 2 side when Essex are Division 1? ie. Sussex will get second best, anyway, as the best candidate will, presumably, choose Chelmsford over Hove.
The more I think about it, unless Peter Moores falls out with Notts (highly unlikely) or a top international Coach decides to choose the backwaters of English county cricket instead, Chris Adams, given the demise and present poorly state of Sussex, is the obvious and, perhaps, only choice.
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Post by hhsussex on Nov 8, 2017 8:56:36 GMT
jb, The whole emphasis of the club's "four year strategic plan" is about bringing through the youngsters and why the recent spate of contract extensions etc.. So, after last season's signings by Davis, I wouldn't have too high hopes on a new roster of top players from outside coming to Sussex during the Winter. The key now is to find a Davis replacement. That is the most important decision as it will have a huge influence over the success or otherwise of this "strategic plan". But, I must ask again. Apart from Chris Adams, what other Coaches with all the top qualities and experience required are available right now? And if they do exist, would they want to come to a Division 2 side when Essex are Division 1? ie. Sussex will get second best, anyway, as the best candidate will, presumably, choose Chelmsford over Hove. The more I think about it, unless Peter Moores falls out with Notts (highly unlikely) or a top international Coach decides to choose the backwaters of English county cricket instead, Chris Adams, given the demise and present poorly state of Sussex, is the obvious and, perhaps, only choice. There are more than a few assumptions here fluffy, and some clunking non sequiturs. Firstly, I don't know what other elements there are in Andrew's strategic plan. His statement said: “We are continuing to work on our four-year strategic plan for the wider organisation and there will be further news on this in due course. “A major part of that strategy will be the on-going development of home-grown Sussex players by our Performance Department."
A major part is not the whole, and the strategy is for the wider organisation. That may have implications for the nature of the post being advertised. For example, it may be that Sussex will not opt for a "Cricket Manager" type of Head Coach, with responsibilities for day to day performance as well as for strategic development. They may decide on splitting between a Performance Manager function, analysing and interpreting progress of players, and a Coach with development responsibilities that would use that information. That would be closer to the relationship between Bayliss and Farbrace than to the role occupied by Robinson, and which Davis wasn't able to fulfil. That would also open up the recruitment prospects and attract a range of candidates for those functions, where Division 2 status wouldn't necessarily deter a professional from following a career opportunity. To say that the choice is between Moores and Adams is once again to fall into the trap of thinking within a closed box of limited scope. I'd hope and expect of Andrew that the fly-half capable of sizing up the opportunities and going for the drop goal, rather than the obvious pass to the scrum-half to draw in the opposing centre, would be looking for more imaginative solutions
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Nov 8, 2017 10:14:33 GMT
hhs,
I take your point, so I will rephrase my previous comment to, "It is highly likely we will see a return of Chris Adams to Sussex 'in some coaching role capacity.'"
While, I understand your anti-Adams views alongside flashblade and irishexile, I would suggest they are a minority viewpoint. After chatting to Members and supporters since the summer of 2015, it's become clear to me that a majority of Sussex supporters would like to see a return of Adams "in some capacity." Who would you choose, for example? Matthew Maynard or Chris Adams? Surely, there is an obvious answer.
For Rob Andrew, the choice of Adams is a no-brainer. First, he would endear himself to a majority of club supporters and secondly, all the experience of Adams' previous Sussex successes will immediately re-energise and transform the present club culture from not knowing how to win to remembering how to win. Not forgetting, of course, our most senior player, Luke Wright, wants a return of Adams.
Agreed, some boardroom members would not be happy with a Grizz arrival, but these are the same people who chose Mark Davis over Adams in 2015 and two years on their credibility is now damaged.
The only way to move this debate on, is to find out which cricket coaches are presently available to apply for the Sussex job. If someone has the time, a trawl of the internet might come up with some potential candidates. Meanwhile, I have still not discovered any advert for a new Sussex CCC Head Coach.
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Post by irishexile on Nov 8, 2017 11:45:22 GMT
hhs, I take your point, so I will rephrase my previous comment to, "It is highly likely we will see a return of Chris Adams to Sussex 'in some coaching role capacity.'" While, I understand your anti-Adams views alongside flashblade and irishexile, I would suggest they are a minority viewpoint. After chatting to Members and supporters since the summer of 2015, it's become clear to me that a majority of Sussex supporters would like to see a return of Adams "in some capacity." Who would you choose, for example? Matthew Maynard or Chris Adams? Surely, there is an obvious answer. For Rob Andrew, the choice of Adams is a no-brainer. First, he would endear himself to a majority of club supporters and secondly, all the experience of Adams' previous Sussex successes will immediately re-energise and transform the present club culture from not knowing how to win to remembering how to win. Not forgetting, of course, our most senior player, Luke Wright, wants a return of Adams. Agreed, some boardroom members would not be happy with a Grizz arrival, but these are the same people who chose Mark Davis over Adams in 2015 and two years on their credibility is now damaged. The only way to move this debate on, is to find out which cricket coaches are presently available to apply for the Sussex job. If someone has the time, a trawl of the internet might come up with some potential candidates. Meanwhile, I have still not discovered any advert for a new Sussex CCC Head Coach. In fairness S&F, as I've stated previously I've never been anti-Adams, and on the occasions I've met him I like the guy. I just don't think that, right here and now, he's the right person for the Head Coach position. I simply think everything except his coaching credentials tick the boxes.
Ultimately if Sussex get the second best from the Essex recruitment drive, if someone who was shortlisted for the Essex job lands in our lap I'd like to think it was still a pretty good appointment.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Nov 8, 2017 11:55:39 GMT
ie,
I understand what you say about Adams coaching abilities, but the Netherlands Captain, Peter Borren, disagrees with you. Although, the little I know about your own cricketing background, naturally, I respect your judgment. And that is why, once the candidates appear, if someone of great experience and success, who obviously outshines Adams, applies for the Head Coach job or whatever role Rob Andrew may create within a new Sussex coaching structure, then hands up and that person deserves the position.
I can only repeat though, Adams ticks most of the boxes required, including one of the most important which is, he understands the former winning club culture. So, if he is pipped to the post as with the England Women's job, then that person would have to be quite special.
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