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Post by jonboy on Sept 18, 2014 17:53:38 GMT
Should we be interested in Mills? We need one, maybe two new seamers. We also need to bring down the age of our seam bowling Will we find two better than Mills? I don't know who Robbo is targeting, but I must admit, I was slightly surprised we were looking at Newby, another thirty year old.
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Post by freddy838 on Sept 18, 2014 18:14:04 GMT
Should we be interested in Mills? We need one, maybe two new seamers. We also need to bring down the age of our seam bowling Will we find two better than Mills? I don't know who Robbo is targeting, but I must admit, I was slightly surprised we were looking at Newby, another thirty year old. It depends on if anyone leaves. Who is out of contract this winter, out of interest? p.s. this probably deserves its own thread |
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Post by coverpoint on Sept 20, 2014 6:35:12 GMT
Should we be interested in Mills? We need one, maybe two new seamers. We also need to bring down the age of our seam bowling Will we find two better than Mills? I don't know who Robbo is targeting, but I must admit, I was slightly surprised we were looking at Newby, another thirty year old. It depends on if anyone leaves. Who is out of contract this winter, out of interest? p.s. this probably deserves its own thread Arafat, Beer, Brown, Hatchett, Jackson, Lewis, Magoffin, Piolet and Wells. Of these only Lewis is probably in trouble. |
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Post by jonboy on Sept 20, 2014 7:27:12 GMT
The bottom line is, we need to improve the squad. We know Jordan now has a central contract, so we need to replace him for starters. If anyone else leaves, then they should be replaced by someone who improves the squad. In recent years, that is something we haven't always done
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Post by mentor on Sept 20, 2014 12:22:59 GMT
So this is the corner of the "dark internet" where you've been hiding.
Re Tredders (the original subject of this thread) v Mr Zed.
2014 1st class averages as of 20th September
Tredwell: 293 overs: 23 wickets for 891 runs. Ave: 38.73 @ 3.04 economy.
Zaidi : 194 overs: 21 wickets for 572 runs. Ave: 27.23 @ 2.94 economy.
Tredwell: a wicket every 13 overs: Zaidi: a wicket every 9 overs.
Hmmm!!
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Post by hhsussex on Sept 20, 2014 13:37:56 GMT
So this is the corner of the "dark internet" where you've been hiding. Re Tredders (the original subject of this thread) v Mr Zed. 2014 1st class averages as of 20th September Tredwell: 293 overs: 23 wickets for 891 runs. Ave: 38.73 @ 3.04 economy. Zaidi : 194 overs: 21 wickets for 572 runs. Ave: 27.23 @ 2.94 economy. Tredwell: a wicket every 13 overs: Zaidi: a wicket every 9 overs. Hmmm!! Welcome back mentor. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2014 14:04:34 GMT
Yes,good to have you back, mentor.
Interesting tredwell v zaidi stats.
Given that Kent have decided to play silly buggers, reneged on the verbal loan agreement for the final three games and are apparently acting the Victorian mill owner over his humble request to be released, how sweet for Sussex to be able to tell the neighbours we no longer want him because we now see Mr zee as a better option!
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Post by jonboy on Sept 20, 2014 14:18:52 GMT
Yeah welcome home Mentor, your calm reasoned posts have been sorely missed.
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Post by hhsussex on Sept 20, 2014 14:56:15 GMT
Yes,good to have you back, mentor. Interesting tredwell v zaidi stats. Given that Kent have decided to play silly buggers, reneged on the verbal loan agreement for the final three games and are apparently acting the Victorian mill owner over his humble request to be released, how sweet for Sussex to be able to tell the neighbours we no longer want him because we now see Mr zee as a better option! I would so much love this all to be true, that Zaidi genuinely was the overlooked all-rounder of great class that Mark Robinson proclaimed last winter, and the genuine spinner capable of adapting to the varied demands of an English summer. How much easier would this be than having to go out and search for what in England these days is a very rare beats, shy and generally not to be pried away from his own particular rural fastness. But there the little fantasy ends. Zaidi bowled in the opening games of the season on damp pitches; he bowled with little flight and barely discernible turn. They were graceful little darts, and sometimes he would get a wicket because of misjudgement or over-confidence by the batsman, but they did not comple a strong batsman to play with care and caution. He then disappeared from the side because his batting was absurdly bad, and after his bowling had been particularly assiduously milked by Somerset. From the Northampton game onward he returned, bowling a few overs in that match that were exactly in the pattern of his earlier performances, and being taken off each time after he had got a wicket . At that time he played a useful role. Tredwell gave away more runs but posed much greater dangers, and in any event, Northants weren't really equal to the task. At Horsham Tredwell bowled defensively, and suvvessfully, at first and then in the second innings used the pitch and his gift for turn excellently and partnered a resurgent Jordan in destroying an opponent who might have been challengers for the Championship. Finally Zaidi bowled longish spells against Lancashire and had greater control, as befitted the much firmer wickets, that enabled him to get a little bounce and avoid his tendency to the predictable. I didn't see the Notts game, but from the scores and everything that has been said about the pitch I imagine he did much of the same. All of which adds up to an occasional bowler who can have his moments. In long spells he tends to give away runs more freely and has less likelihood of gaining control: witness his figures v Somerset at Hove (21-1-75-1) and contrast with Tredwell on a deadened strip at Arundel against a rampant Yorkshire (59-12-158-3). I'd like to see Zaidi have a successful second year, as a late-middle order batsman with licence to play his shots following a much stronger middle order now that we have Cachopa, and an occasional spinner who might perhaps work in tandem with a regular, dedicated spin bowler. |
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Post by mentor on Sept 20, 2014 15:13:46 GMT
And even more interesting, despite Mr Zed himself expressing disappointment in his season, and glad that he was dropped to the 2nds to regain his confidence, in that warming interview for Sussex TV, his over all bowling record makes very good viewing.
The outstanding Division 1 slow bowler was Yorkshire's Adil Rashid with 43 wickets at an average of just 24.34 and a strike rate of a wicket every 8 overs. But Zed comes in 2nd best in the averages and strike rate when compared to all of the other slow bowlers in division 1.
Discounting those who played less than 4 matches (Zed played 8; Tredders 8, including some in division 2)... and part time bowlers who bowled less than 35 overs... these are the records so far:
Rashid (Yorkshire) : average 24.34 ; economy 3.05 ; wicket every 8 overs
Zaidi (Sussex) : average 27.23 ; economy 2.94 ; wicket every 9 overs
Patel (Warwicks) : average 27.58 ; economy 2.84 ; wicket every 9.5 overs
Kerrigan (Lancs) : average 34.00 ; economy 3.03 ; wicket every 11 overs
Gary Keedy (Notts) : average 35.76 ; economy 3.66 ; wicket every 10 overs
James Dockrell (Zum) : average 35.76 ; economy 2.69 ' wicket every 13 overs
Tredwell (Kent/Suss) : average 38.73 ; economy 3.04 ; wicket every 13 overs
Fat Sam (Notts) ; average 47.30 ; economy 3.43 ; wicket every 14 overs
Myburgh (Zum) ; average 50.36 ; economy 2.71 ; wicket every 18.5 overs
Patel (Middle) ; average 65.11 ; economy 3.10 ; wicket every 21 overs
Rayner (Middle) ; average 119.57 ; economy 2.78 ; wicket every 43 overs
There were a couple of others in between Fat Sam and Ollie, including Joe Root whose average was huge, but I put in the two Middlesex spinners, as it is probably the reason why the Middle, with such strong seam bowling are in the relegation shake up... and a sobering thought for those of us who thought that Ollie was a gem we should have kept at all costs.
Amongst the part-timers who bowled not many overs, Luke Wells did quite well with an average of 36.60, Jack Leach of Somerset came in at 34.80... and the part-timer who troubled the leader board with an average of just 22 was.... er... Daweed Malan ... but he bowled just a handful of joke bowling and picked up a couple of joke wickets.
But looking at the table of the recognised spinners... considering he wasn't on top form, his stats are pretty impressive, and as his batting is now coming up to the table again, we may get two or three years of the all-rounder we were hoping for.
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Post by mentor on Sept 20, 2014 15:33:55 GMT
Actually HH, my concern over Tredwell is that didn't pose much of a threat; control yes, but little threat. It's easy to pick out the matches that inflate a bowlers stats, but that can be said for all. In the two most recent matches, Zaidi out-bowled Kerrigan, Keedy and Patel. And Tredders figures were vastly inflated to the good by the 4 for 7 he took against Warwickshire when the pitch was turning sideways. That's not knocking him... he took them... but if we compare, we compare on a level playing field.
Ziadi bowled truly excellently at Trent Bridge, and apart from Samit's charge down the pitch, got his wickets through guile; Keedy's three first innings wickets were totally innocuous straight balls that we gifted him through sweep shots. And in the 2nd innings of both sides, on a pitch that wasn't a turner, he was the only spinner who looked a threat.
I'm not saying that Zed is gong to be the answer, but I hope that he is... and sure as hell, on the evidence we have seen, and the fact that he is 2nd choice in a 2nd division outfit, Tredwell isn't.
So let's see how Mr Z does with bat and ball at Wantage road... and into the start of next season... because as this thread has seemed to veer towards, our critical shopping list need is a quality seam bowler to replace CJ who even if he doesn't play, will be wrapped in cotton wool next year by the ECB.
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Post by hhsussex on Sept 20, 2014 16:01:10 GMT
Actually HH, my concern over Tredwell is that didn't pose much of a threat; control yes, but little threat. It's easy to pick out the matches that inflate a bowlers stats, but that can be said for all. In the two most recent matches, Zaidi out-bowled Kerrigan, Keedy and Patel. And Tredders figures were vastly inflated to the good by the 4 for 7 he took against Warwickshire when the pitch was turning sideways. That's not knocking him... he took them... but if we compare, we compare on a level playing field. Ziadi bowled truly excellently at Trent Bridge, and apart from Samit's charge down the pitch, got his wickets through guile; Keedy's three first innings wickets were totally innocuous straight balls that we gifted him through sweep shots. And in the 2nd innings of both sides, on a pitch that wasn't a turner, he was the only spinner who looked a threat. I'm not saying that Zed is gong to be the answer, but I hope that he is... and sure as hell, on the evidence we have seen, and the fact that he is 2nd choice in a 2nd division outfit, Tredwell isn't. So let's see how Mr Z does with bat and ball at Wantage road... and into the start of next season... because as this thread has seemed to veer towards, our critical shopping list need is a quality seam bowler to replace CJ who even if he doesn't play, will be wrapped in cotton wool next year by the ECB. Well, either you're right and I'm wrong, or you're wrong and I'm right. You were at Notts and saw Zaidi bowl threateningly there; I have seen him in all the home games and thought him a useful, innocuous change bowler. I don't think Tredwell is a great spinner, but he certainly rose to the occasion and firstly gave control and then at Horsham - where the pitch offered something to everyone, not just spinners, by the way - was a very strong attacking threat. And I do believe that since the loss of Panesar our attack has been badly out of balance, leading to overreliance on seam bowlers to make the initial assault, then to bowl long stock spells, then to try a second tier attack, without any variation or surprise. Like you I've been following the various spin bowlers this season and have been analysing in posts to this board throughout, and I'm sure you'd agree that the conclusion is...pretty rubbishy. Rashid bowls in short spells these days since he lost the ability to really spin the ball a couple of years ago, and only Patel of Warwickshire has generally acceptable stats - and he's both a New Zealand player and a roller of the ball, rather than true spinner. The better spinners are in the Second Division, and that's really where things start to get a little interesting. Is it that Division 1 is determined solely by the faster bowlers, or that pitches there are bred for batsmen and only bowlers of high pace or remarkable bounce are likely to win through? Are Division 2 wickets suspect by nature, and therefore more susceptible to spin bowlers, or could it be that Division 32 batsmen have poorer technical skills? |
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Sept 20, 2014 16:09:00 GMT
Like others, am delighted to see Mr Z finding form just when we need it. His ball which bowled Read in the Notts second
innings (some have described it as similar to the legendary Warne delivery that bowled Gatting) was, perhaps, the most
crucial of all the wickets including Hales. Read's previous pugnacious and stubborn displays to gain a draw for Notts
(The match against Lancs comes to mind) was to be feared.
Mr Z can hold his head up high at the 'Players Awards' on Sept 27th although one hopes he is not just an 'Indian Summer'
player like last year. He is definitely worth a second year to see if he can develop from here. Certainly, his time in the
2nds has paid dividends and Mr Z may still turn out to be another one of Robinson's maverick gambles that come good.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Sept 21, 2014 10:50:12 GMT
It's a start.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 13:14:20 GMT
Z's achievements have been modest but as s&f says he has at least started to improve from the naive player who looked so out of his depth earlier this season.
TBH, my suggestion that we tell Kent we no longer want Tredwell because we have someone better was rather tongue in cheek and not due to life in the tropics having addled my brain!
But Kent's problem over tredwell/riley is not going to go away until one of them leaves. They may have both played in Kent's last two matches but I can guarantee both will not be in the Kent side come next April , one of them will be very pissed off and the loan issue will arise all over again.
England have told tredwell they want him playing f/c cricket and they have also made no secret that they would prefer those on incremental contracts to hone their skills against div one opposition. The two counties that came up last season are going straight back down again, further evidence that the chasm in quality that has emerged over the last few years is fast becoming an unbridgeable gulf.
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