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Post by deepfineleg on Apr 13, 2020 9:18:48 GMT
Seriously, though - what a socially dangerous policy it would be if the 'old' were seen to be sacrificed for the benefit of the 'young' . . . Although Brexit can be viewed as the future of the young being sacrificed for the views of the old. |
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Post by flashblade on Apr 13, 2020 9:36:16 GMT
Seriously, though - what a socially dangerous policy it would be if the 'old' were seen to be sacrificed for the benefit of the 'young' . . . Although Brexit can be viewed as the future of the young being sacrificed for the views of the old. Agreed. 1. This reinforces the stupidity of holding referenda. But 2. At least Brexit didn't condemn the young to a perpetual lockdown! |
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Apr 13, 2020 9:46:13 GMT
I have discovered the ultimate solution to the world's distressing problems.  Just as it happened during the (non) pandemic of 2009. And as politics creeps nefariously ever more into the Covid-19 crisis, this chart is worth a view. |
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Post by liquidskin on Apr 13, 2020 10:05:00 GMT
Flash, the only reason BAME citizens are more at risk is because they work in the more at risk jobs, live in the more at risk households and reside in the more at risk cities. Surely that's obvious? If there were a similar amount of white people working as bus drivers, taxi drivers & NHS workers in the inner cities the numbers would be the same. Same thing in the US. Regarding Sweden - well if their leader concedes it was wrong... Their numbers still look decent though which tells me lots of people are being infected but ain't being hospitalised. I would have thought if they had regrets it would be on the back of a very fast spread.
I'm all for herd immunity if the numbers stack up but without a vaccine to back it up and without absolute clarity about whether infected people are actually immune, you can see the doubt in doing it. I think it's too late for that. I suspect we're left with one option, the one we're in, and for it to work we'll need to be in lockdown for at least another two months, judging by other countries. If you come out too early, you probably waste the time you spent in lockdown initially.
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Post by deepfineleg on Apr 13, 2020 10:37:22 GMT
Reverting to the title of the thread, after a pleasant Day 1 yesterday it looks as though the weather has reverted to something more typical for cricket at easter. Brrr.
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Post by coverpoint on Apr 13, 2020 10:37:56 GMT
I cannot speak for other businesses but for the company I work the damage is already done. Where is the evidence to suggest the lock down is working to justify the complete destruction of the UK economy? It's alright for mp's in their high paid public sector jobs with gold plated final salary pensions. What about the rest of us? With 30 years left to work and left with a bill £2.4bn a day to repay. We face a future of higher taxes, lower wages and job insecurity. That's the future under Tory Britain. Unlock the economy now and force the over 60s and at risk groups to isolate.
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Post by flashblade on Apr 13, 2020 11:11:23 GMT
I cannot speak for other businesses but for the company I work the damage is already done. Where is the evidence to suggest the lock down is working to justify the complete destruction of the UK economy? It's alright for mp's in their high paid public sector jobs with gold plated final salary pensions. What about the rest of us? With 30 years left to work and left with a bill £2.4bn a day to repay. We face a future of higher taxes, lower wages and job insecurity. That's the future under Tory Britain. Unlock the economy now and force the over 60s and at risk groups to isolate. CP - I share your frustration, and I understand your despair. But the bigger picture is that we seem to be in the midst of the biggest threat to our civilisation since WW2. Personally, I don't think the old normal will return. The new normal, when it evolves, will look different, attitudes will have changed, economic growth won't be seen as the be-all-and-end-all, public services will be more respected, remote working will be more commonplace, there will be less international travel, perhaps more respect for the environment, and there will be other differences that I can't envisage. This is just my view, but I think the world will be different - whether better or worse than the old one will be a matter of opinion. Those that lived through WW2 would surely remind us that none of us is entitled to any particular norm. If an enemy attacks you, you have to defend yourself. Unlike a physical enemy, the only way to attack Covid-19 is by defending against it. Did the British people want to stop fighting Germany because their jobs and way of life had been shattered, because the economy was being destroyed, and there was no live sport? Of course not, they had to fight through it, otherwise they would have been overwhelmed. When it was over they then had to make the best of what was left. |
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Post by coverpoint on Apr 13, 2020 11:25:44 GMT
I cannot speak for other businesses but for the company I work the damage is already done. Where is the evidence to suggest the lock down is working to justify the complete destruction of the UK economy? It's alright for mp's in their high paid public sector jobs with gold plated final salary pensions. What about the rest of us? With 30 years left to work and left with a bill £2.4bn a day to repay. We face a future of higher taxes, lower wages and job insecurity. That's the future under Tory Britain. Unlock the economy now and force the over 60s and at risk groups to isolate. CP - I share your frustration, and I understand your despair. But the bigger picture is that we seem to be in the midst of the biggest threat to our civilisation since WW2. Personally, I don't think the old normal will return. The new normal, when it evolves, will look different, attitudes will have changed, economic growth won't be seen as the be-all-and-end-all, public services will be more respected, remote working will be more commonplace, there will be less international travel, and there will be other differences that I can't envisage. This is just my view, but I think the world will be different - whether better or worse than the old one will be a matter of opinion. Those that lived through WW2 would surely remind us that none of us is entitled to any particular norm. Did the British people want to stop fighting Germany because their jobs and way of life had been shattered, because the economy was being destroyed, and there was no live sport? Of course not, they fought through it and then made the best of what was left at the end of it. Where is the evidence it is actually saving lives? No one is questioning the validity of the scientific information. Without economic growth jobs will not be created, people will not be able to afford their own homes and will continue to line the pockets of landlords. Pensioners are protected as they have fixed income but the last ten years under the Tories have seen underemployment, falling wages in real terms (thank you bankers) and falling living standards. How will people of working age get into a position where they are even able to retire? I cannot my boss ever seeing remote work as the norm. If we end up with 20k deaths and mass unemployment I think there will be many people down the road questioning the decision to lock down.
I would guess Sunak wants three weeks and Hancock thinks six weeks. I suspect Hancock will get his way:
Cash flow is the worry for most businesses. Ours is better than most. However, having lost our three biggest race meetings of the year and with us not racing again until September this is a major strain on cash flow. If the lock down is extended until the end of May the furlough process needs to be extended by at least two months as it will take times for business to get back to where they were before. Only 4,500 small businesses have got small business loans. What business owner in their right mind is going to use debt as a way of getting through this. Given the loans are underwritten by the government the interest rate should be 1.5% not 12.5%.
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Post by flashblade on Apr 13, 2020 11:36:43 GMT
CP - I share your frustration, and I understand your despair. But the bigger picture is that we seem to be in the midst of the biggest threat to our civilisation since WW2. Personally, I don't think the old normal will return. The new normal, when it evolves, will look different, attitudes will have changed, economic growth won't be seen as the be-all-and-end-all, public services will be more respected, remote working will be more commonplace, there will be less international travel, and there will be other differences that I can't envisage. This is just my view, but I think the world will be different - whether better or worse than the old one will be a matter of opinion. Those that lived through WW2 would surely remind us that none of us is entitled to any particular norm. Did the British people want to stop fighting Germany because their jobs and way of life had been shattered, because the economy was being destroyed, and there was no live sport? Of course not, they fought through it and then made the best of what was left at the end of it. Where is the evidence it is actually saving lives?
The NHS is coping as result of the lockdown 'flattening the curve.' If the NHS was overwhelmed, then not only would Covid cases not get treated, but all 'normal' emergency cases would not be dealt with - heart attacks, strokes, A&E, etc.
No one is questioning the validity of the scientific information. Without economic growth jobs will not be created, people will not be able to afford their own homes and will continue to line the pockets of landlords. Pensioners are protected as they have fixed income but the last ten years under the Tories have seen underemployment, falling wages in real terms and falling living standards. How will people of working age get into a position where they are even able to retire? I cannot my boss ever seeing remote work as the norm. If we end up with 20k deaths I think there will be many people down the road questioning the decision to lock down.
I think you are still expecting to preserve the old normality. I'm sure the lockdown will be eased in the coming weeks, but it won't be completely lifted in the short term. It's not a binary option.
I would guess Sunak wants three weeks and Hancock thinks six weeks:
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Post by coverpoint on Apr 13, 2020 11:40:15 GMT
Where is the evidence it is actually saving lives?
The NHS is coping as result of the lockdown 'flattening the curve.' If the NHS was overwhelmed, then not only would Covid cases not get treated, but all 'normal' emergency cases would not be dealt with - heart attacks, strokes, A&E, etc.
No one is questioning the validity of the scientific information. Without economic growth jobs will not be created, people will not be able to afford their own homes and will continue to line the pockets of landlords. Pensioners are protected as they have fixed income but the last ten years under the Tories have seen underemployment, falling wages in real terms and falling living standards. How will people of working age get into a position where they are even able to retire? I cannot my boss ever seeing remote work as the norm. If we end up with 20k deaths I think there will be many people down the road questioning the decision to lock down.
I think you are still expecting to preserve the old normality. I'm sure the lockdown will be eased in the coming weeks, but it won't be completely lifted in the short term. It's not a binary option.
I would guess Sunak wants three weeks and Hancock thinks six weeks:
We locked down because of the government's complete inability to prepare for a crisis which we were warned about as far back as 2015. If people are still dying then is lock down working? South Korea and Germany have proved testing is key. We are in this mess as the government failed to prepare by equipping themselves with the necessary testing and PPE equipment.
As for returning to norm what's the alternative? Wait for a vaccine which is 18 months away. That's absurd.
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Post by flashblade on Apr 13, 2020 12:14:04 GMT
We locked down because of the government's complete inability to prepare for a crisis which we were warned about as far back as 2015.
I agree that our government was caught on the back foot. We didn't have the enough equipment, staff or hospitals, and you can blame that on Tory government policy over the past decade. One consolation is that, as I understand it, since leaving the EU, the NHS is receiving an extra £350 million per week.
If people are still dying then is lock down working?
Surely you accept that the lock down has reduced the infection rate and flattened the curve? As I said in my previous post: If the NHS was overwhelmed, then not only would Covid cases not get treated, but all 'normal' emergency cases would not be dealt with - heart attacks, strokes, A&E, etc.
South Korea and Germany have proved testing is key. We are in this mess as the government failed to prepare by equipping themselves with the necessary testing and PPE equipment.
Agreed, but the countries you mention still had lock downs, didn't they?
As for returning to norm what's the alternative? Wait for a vaccine which is 18 months away. That's absurd.
Until we get a vaccine, the human race is still vulnerable. Bet your life that vaccine research is going on frantically in a number of countries. |
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Post by coverpoint on Apr 13, 2020 12:30:51 GMT
We locked down because of the government's complete inability to prepare for a crisis which we were warned about as far back as 2015.
I agree that our government was caught on the back foot. We didn't have the enough equipment, staff or hospitals, and you can blame that on Tory government policy over the past decade. One consolation is that, as I understand it, since leaving the EU, the NHS is receiving an extra £350 million per week.
If people are still dying then is lock down working?
Surely you accept that the lock down has reduced the infection rate and flattened the curve? As I said in my previous post: If the NHS was overwhelmed, then not only would Covid cases not get treated, but all 'normal' emergency cases would not be dealt with - heart attacks, strokes, A&E, etc.
South Korea and Germany have proved testing is key. We are in this mess as the government failed to prepare by equipping themselves with the necessary testing and PPE equipment.
Agreed, but the countries you mention still had lock downs, didn't they?
As for returning to norm what's the alternative? Wait for a vaccine which is 18 months away. That's absurd.
Until we get a vaccine, the human race is still vulnerable. Bet your life that vaccine research is going on frantically in a number of countries. We aren't getting £350m a week as we haven't actually left the EU yet! By testing we would know if we have / have had the virus and would have a better idea of what we are dealing with. Austerity was a choice. As the six largest economy I also find staggering we cannot equip our NHS staff with the correct PPE equipment. We owe them that at the very least.
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Post by gmdf on Apr 13, 2020 12:48:46 GMT
Unlock the economy now and force the over 60s and at risk groups to isolate. Why not emigrate to China, say (or North Korea)? With views like this you'd fit right in! |
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Post by flashblade on Apr 13, 2020 13:03:42 GMT
We aren't getting £350m a week as we haven't actually left the EU yet! I think we left the EU on 31 January. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51307874 So when do you think this £350m per week will actually materialise?By testing we would know if we have / have had the virus and would have a better idea of what we are dealing with. Don't think anyone would disagree with that.Austerity was a choice. But you have criticised the fact that the government left the NHS unprepared for the virus outbreak. As the six largest economy I also find staggering we cannot equip our NHS staff with the correct PPE equipment. We owe them that at the very least. Don't think anyone would disagree with that.
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Post by coverpoint on Apr 13, 2020 13:13:04 GMT
We aren't getting £350m a week as we haven't actually left the EU yet! I think we left the EU on 31 January. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51307874 So when do you think this £350m per week will actually materialise?By testing we would know if we have / have had the virus and would have a better idea of what we are dealing with. Don't think anyone would disagree with that.Austerity was a choice. But you have criticised the fact that the government left the NHS unprepared for the virus outbreak. As the six largest economy I also find staggering we cannot equip our NHS staff with the correct PPE equipment. We owe them that at the very least. Don't think anyone would disagree with that.
We are still paying the eu until we actually leave. We haven't finished trade negotiations yet. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. By choosing austerity the nhs was critically underfunded. |
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Just as it happened during the (non) pandemic of 2009.
