|
Post by hhsussex on May 26, 2016 7:44:37 GMT
Interesting to see in the advance publicity that Sussex are putting out for the Arundel week that there is a very heavy emphasis on the sponsorship of the games by the firm of Irwin Mitchell, a succesful firm of solicitors. Presumably this sponsorship extends to underwriting the financial returns required by Sussex to play cricket at outgrounds away from Hove?
That begs the question why, if a firm like Irwin Mitchell can be persuaded to support a week at Arundel, no comparable angel could be found to provide a fairly modest sponsorship to allow Sussex to take the game to Horsham, whose pitch and facilities are far superior to Arundel, and where the transport infrastructure is so much better? Could it be that picturesque, pretty Arundel sells on the snobbery and exclusivity that Horsham is perceived as lacking?
|
|
|
Post by hhsussex on Sept 27, 2016 7:38:35 GMT
A return to this long-established thread given new and heightened topicality by this teaser of an article in today's Times: Under the circumstances, isn't all this guff about "destroying the structure of the championship game" absolute cant? That structure is entirely sustained by the money produced by the ECB. That is why it has substantial cash reserves, and why it seeks to do further and better marketing deals, to keep the counties afloat. It is the ECB that is sustaining an 18 county championship and not the diehard loyalists like Sussex, losing £600, 000 per year, nor the smug Surrey with their huge turnover that they will not put to hazard.
|
|
|
Post by Wicked Cricket on Sept 27, 2016 8:32:53 GMT
Hhs, You got there 39 minutes before me! The story was bubbling away on Twitter last night led by Lizzy Ammon, although rumours have been flying around for several weeks. I have spent the last 3 years following Durham's financial plight. Writing about their latest loans, their promises, hopes, dreams... I even had a lengthy conversation with the City Council who believed Durham were on the right track and Test and ODIs would bring economic sustainability to the area. All it's done has brought a county to its knees and a lot of headaches for those organisations including the ECB who've lent them money. Durham epitomise the county club who had grand schemes, egged on by the Deloitte report in late 2005, but who lacked the business acumen and experience to pull them off. There is no market for another TMG in the Midlands and North when there is already Headingley, Trentbridge, Edgbaston and Old Trafford. Was this madness from Durham or egotistical naivety? Members and supporters were sucked in by a hierarchy who promised them the world of mega-music concerts, economic rejuvenation, cricket festivals, top International matches and the like; and now the club stare into the abyss of insolvency and the possible humiliation of being relegated to Division 2. At times, county cricket suffers from a reality-bypass. We see it again with the critics of the T20 City-Based Tournament. Some counties live in a bubble where the commercial dog eat dog world doesn't exist due to the annual £2m handouts from the ECB. The way to prick that bubble is, however harsh, to allow Durham to go bankrupt, if need be. That might be sufficient to wake some clubs up and make them realise that a much larger T20 competition, like a City-Based one, is essential for county cricket to survive and will allow the next generation to enjoy our wonderful sport. phone.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/675623.htmlPS: Any chance borderman can post that page 58. I believe he subscribes to 'The Times' and therefore we can get around the paywall.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 9:23:03 GMT
Here is Atherton's story. The 'could mean relegation' line sounds phoney to me: Durham were 45 pts clear of relegation and it's hard to believe that any points deduction is going to be as tough as that. More likely taht they start next season with something like minus 24 pts, I'd say.
The line about whether it would be Hants or Kent which benefits sounds phoney, too. Two down, one up this season. So if Durham were to be penalised and thus ended up with fewer pts than Hants, there can no quesion that Hants would stay up. Even the ECB could not change the rules retrospectively and decide that three were going down and two were going to be promoted from Div Two after all.
tbh, I think Atherton has got wind of a half-decent story (ECB may have to take sanctions against Durham) and then got a little carried away and hyped it into a Dobell-style flier...
EXCLUSIVE BY MICHAEL ATHERTON
The ECB is considering whether to impose a points deduction, which could mean relegation, on Durham after giving the club financial support to survive the season that ended last week.
Durham’s debts, to the local council, the ECB and others, are thought to be in the region of £5-6 million. To ensure Durham’s viability through the summer, the ECB accelerated the annual fee payment for county clubs and rescheduled the staging fee (£923,000) for the Sri Lanka Test in May.
The ECB also provided further loans to enable the club to meet payroll responsibilities. Now the governing body will decide what penalty, if any, Durham should incur. Given the county’s precarious situation, a financial penalty would be clearly self-defeating. A points deduction, whether retrospective or for the 2017 season, seems a more likely course of action.
The County Championship season ended on Friday, with Middlesex finishing as champions and Nottinghamshire and Hampshire relegated from the first division. Because of structural changes for the 2017 season, only one county from the second division — champions Essex — won promotion. With a points sanction under consideration, it raises the possibility that the final standings may change. Durham finished the season in fourth position, 45 points clear of Hampshire, who were eighth, with bottom-placed Nottinghamshire 31 points further adrift.
Whatever the result of the ECB’s decision, there will be aggrieved parties. If relegated, Durham’s players would feel hard done by. Nor is it clear which of Hampshire or Kent, who were runners-up in the second division, would benefit. No doubt both would make their case convincingly. If penalised for the 2017 season, or not at all, other counties would feel that Durham have been allowed to remain competitive this year using money they do not have.
Because of the debts that they have built up and the intervention of the ECB, Durham will change their governance structure in the near future, moving from a private limited liability company to a community interest company instead, ensuring that any future profits will be retained and used for the good of the club. Although Durham cricket will continue to function as before, the ECB sees this change in governance, essentially, as an “insolvency event”, which means that sanctions are under consideration due to the financial regulations that govern the ECB.
The ECB is in a tricky situation, though. There is no suggestion of any financial impropriety at Durham. The club could argue that other avenues of potential funding have not been investigated because of the continuing arrangement with the ECB and that, therefore, it is wrong to consider their change of status as an insolvency event, and that they are simply a more extreme case of the problems facing many county clubs. They could argue that the problem is not with Durham, but with how English cricket is governed, pointing to the ECB’s reserves, which stand at £70 million.
Although Durham breached the salary cap in 2012, this was a one-off situation caused by the return of a number of England players from central contracts. Durham’s debts are not excessive compared with some other clubs that stage international cricket, but as a result of location and lack of diversification they do not generate the same level of revenue.
The ECB does not want to be seen as a lender of last resort, however, and may wish to send out a message that financial support comes with consequences.
Should a points sanction be imposed, Durham’s players would feel unfairly penalised. In particular, the county would point to the stipulation — made at the time of the grant of first-class status — to build an international venue and how, since then, the risk involved in hosting international cricket has shifted from the ECB to the counties. It has been costly for Durham to bid for international games against the more financially powerful southern Test-match grounds.
The players were told about two months ago of the extent of the financial problems. Since then, Mark Stoneman and Scott Borthwick have left to join Surrey. Paul Collingwood and Keaton Jennings have extended their contracts, as has Ben Stokes, although his salary is the responsibility of the ECB given that he is a centrally contracted player.
Durham have a fine record of producing top-class cricketers. Collingwood, Stephen Harmison and Stokes are among the most influential England cricketers of recent years. Durham won the second XI championship this year, as well as the under-17 competition, and the senior side have continued to perform competitively despite the financial constraints.
The Times reported the extent of Durham’s financial plight in May, before the Sri Lanka Test. Since then, the situation has deteriorated to the point where Durham would not have been able to survive the season without added help. Now the club will find out whether they are to be penalised on the field for their financial difficulties off it.
|
|
|
Post by Wicked Cricket on Sept 27, 2016 10:56:09 GMT
Lizzy Ammon, the tweeter of all tweeters, has written a bizarre comment this morning while communicating with Sussex former CEO, Dave Brooks. She says, "There's going to be one almighty s**tstorm if Durham do get relegated or start with points deduction. Their debt isn't totally their fault." Brooks responds, "Though Durham do have to take responsibility for their inability to sell their events but that comes from future purdah !"
Not their fault!?! Am I missing something? Did the ECB command the Durham hierarchy to "Build another TMG and they will come!" in an area of England which already has 4 other TMGs?
It seems that vested media interests are now attempting to manipulate and distort the Durham situation. Those journalists and social media commentators not in favour of a City-Based tournament, worried that the Durham financial plight will play into the hands of those who are for it, are now saying it "isn't" Durham's fault they are £6m in debt but instead blame must be thrust towards the big bad wolf named the ECB who this year has bailed out the club from going bankrupt.
Extraordinary!
Obviously, some anti City-Based supporters must be getting desperate after their recent humiliating defeat of 16-3.
|
|
|
Post by leedsgull on Sept 27, 2016 14:27:29 GMT
I genuinely would like to know what Lizzy Ammon's qualifications are to report on cricket matters. She first came to my attention a couple of years ago whilst listening to the county online commentaries. I have found her to be consistently ill informed about the basics of the game yet she crops up all over the place. Now whenever I encounter her I move on. I might add that there have been several other female additions to the commentaries who have enhanced them. In particular Isabelle Westbury who is also captain of Middlesex ladies and was in the Western Storm squad.
|
|
|
Post by Wicked Cricket on Sept 27, 2016 17:14:26 GMT
Finally, other news outlets have picked up on 'The Times' exclusive - even the BBC Website who are often the last to pounce. There is an interesting quote from Hants Rod Bransgrove. "I think that if they're penalised, that relegation is the right move for them. I don't want to see the back of Durham. I've got no problem with the ECB doing what they need to do to support the situation. I do feel, though, that any of us that played Durham when they were being (financially) supported were at a disadvantage." What is odd about this situation is the debt when compared to other counties. Durham, allegedly, have a £6m deficit. Compare this to Yorkshire (£24m); Warwickshire (£20m); Glamorgan (£7m); Kent (£5m) etc etc.. Durham's doesn't seem that bad when compared to others, yet they still had to go cap in hand to the ECB. Meanwhile, Glamorgan forced a 70% haircut on their creditors without any word of relegation or points deduction. I suppose once you get the ECB involved, other counties believe the goalposts have changed, where payment holidays or further loans from City or Borough Councils don't count. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/37487298Lg, Ammon is a law unto herself. An OCD tweeter (like cigarette smoking she's a 40 a day tweeter), she flits from one side of the camp to the other with great regularity. Some see her as the opposing will to Alison Mitchell. Ammon is strident, contentious and at times aggressive, whereas Mitchell is a good conservative girl who won't rock the boat.
|
|
|
Post by flashblade on Sept 27, 2016 17:17:22 GMT
Finally, other news outlets have picked up on 'The Times' exclusive - even the BBC Website who are often the last to pounce. There is an interesting quote from Hants Rod Bransgrove. "I think that if they're penalised, that relegation is the right move for them. I don't want to see the back of Durham. I've got no problem with the ECB doing what they need to do to support the situation. I do feel, though, that any of us that played Durham when they were being (financially) supported were at a disadvantage." www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/37487298Oh, and if that happened, which county would avoid relegation to Div 2, Mr Bransgrove? My God, talk about self-serving!
|
|
|
Post by hhsussex on Sept 27, 2016 17:26:02 GMT
Finally, other news outlets have picked up on 'The Times' exclusive - even the BBC Website who are often the last to pounce. There is an interesting quote from Hants Rod Bransgrove. "I think that if they're penalised, that relegation is the right move for them. I don't want to see the back of Durham. I've got no problem with the ECB doing what they need to do to support the situation. I do feel, though, that any of us that played Durham when they were being (financially) supported were at a disadvantage." www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/37487298I think that Mandy Rice-Davies would approve of that. I agree with borderman that the article itself is rather chancy, not really justifying the most sensational of its claims. The point is, that it isn't a great big plot by the ECB to do down the counties and their noble struggle to preserve the true, the sacred flame of championship cricket, it is just another everyday story of a county team that has got in too deep and has had to be kept afloat. To legitimise this, there has to be sufficient revenue guaranteed so that all the counties can get a return from the game. Thereafter they have to manage their own affairs, and that is true for Durham, who have to pay off the huge amounts they borrowed to bring Test cricket to the North-east; for Yorkshire, who have the Graves Family Trust to carry around on their backs; and for Sussex, who have to face up to the fact that they chose to stay in a small ground without capability of development.
|
|
|
Post by northfan on Sept 27, 2016 22:32:08 GMT
Hhs, You got there 39 minutes before me! The story was bubbling away on Twitter last night led by Lizzy Ammon, although rumours have been flying around for several weeks. I have spent the last 3 years following Durham's financial plight. Writing about their latest loans, their promises, hopes, dreams... I even had a lengthy conversation with the City Council who believed Durham were on the right track and Test and ODIs would bring economic sustainability to the area. All it's done has brought a county to its knees and a lot of headaches for those organisations including the ECB who've lent them money. Durham epitomise the county club who had grand schemes, egged on by the Deloitte report in late 2005, but who lacked the business acumen and experience to pull them off. There is no market for another TMG in the Midlands and North when there is already Headingley, Trentbridge, Edgbaston and Old Trafford. Was this madness from Durham or egotistical naivety? Members and supporters were sucked in by a hierarchy who promised them the world of mega-music concerts, economic rejuvenation, cricket festivals, top International matches and the like; and now the club stare into the abyss of insolvency and the possible humiliation of being relegated to Division 2. At times, county cricket suffers from a reality-bypass. We see it again with the critics of the T20 City-Based Tournament. Some counties live in a bubble where the commercial dog eat dog world doesn't exist due to the annual £2m handouts from the ECB. The way to prick that bubble is, however harsh, to allow Durham to go bankrupt, if need be. That might be sufficient to wake some clubs up and make them realise that a much larger T20 competition, like a City-Based one, is essential for county cricket to survive and will allow the next generation to enjoy our wonderful sport. phone.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/675623.htmlPS: Any chance borderman can post that page 58. I believe he subscribes to 'The Times' and therefore we can get around the paywall. –------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you have any idea where Chester-le-Sreet is and how many Durham members do you know to be able to make the claim that members were 'sucked in by the hierarchy'? I'm a Durham member and don't believe I've ever been sucked in by anyone. We are all aware of the financial situation of the county. In a later post, you ask the question did the ECB demand that Durham build another TMG in an area that already has 4 TMGs. Both Trent Bridge and Edgebaston are nearer to Lords than Chester-le-Street and as Atherton states in his article, it was a condition of granting first class status that Durham build an international venue. What is the point of building an international venue if it's not to stage international cricket? Maybe if the ECB had not moved the risk of staging internationals away to the counties, you would see just how much of a market there is in the area for international cricket. There is a world of difference in hosting the Australians in August to hosting a poor Sri Lankan side in early May.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 23:37:52 GMT
I genuinely would like to know what Lizzy Ammon's qualifications are to report on cricket matters. She first came to my attention a couple of years ago whilst listening to the county online commentaries. I have found her to be consistently ill informed about the basics of the game yet she crops up all over the place. Now whenever I encounter her I move on. I might add that there have been several other female additions to the commentaries who have enhanced them. In particular Isabelle Westbury who is also captain of Middlesex ladies and was in the Western Storm squad. Her qualifications are that she gets all the best gossip - and it's pretty obvious why. If I was Zac Toumasi or even Colin Graves, I'd be far more likely to let slip something indiscrete at close play to Elizabeth as she fluttered her eyelids and giggled coquetishishly over a glass of chilled white wine than I would over a manly beer with 'orrible Hoult or dubious Dobell. She's hilarious when she's on Sussex radio commentary with Adrian Harms. AH will be describing the field in the most meticulous but boring detail, and Lizzie will pipe up, "Do you want to know what I've just heard?" and come out with some juicy morsel of gossip that has nothing to do with what's going on in the match, but is invariably far more interesting. But I agree when she's required to commentate ball-by-ball it's a pretty awful litany of cliches she's copied from the Sky Sports school of ex-England Test captains and which suggests little insight into how the game is actually played. I hope that doesn't sound sexist. It's really not meant to be. I rather admire her. It's why someone like Louise Taylor on The Guardian, an old friend of mine of many years standing is such a good football reporter. Set an attractive female journalist loose in an almost exclusively male environment and she will always get you stories that none of the boys can get. Alison Mitchell is an excellent commentator, as good as most of her male peers on TMS, and Ebony-Jewel Cora-Lee Camellia Rosamond Rainford-Brent gets better every time I hear her, too.
|
|
|
Post by Wicked Cricket on Sept 28, 2016 10:35:22 GMT
northfan, First, it's an honour to have a Forum Member from Durham CCC. You are one of only a very few. This must be a difficult and uncertain time for Durham supporters and I am sure everyone on this Board wishes you all the best for a positive outcome at the club. As to your queries. At times, I can get carried away with my writing. The phrase 'sucked in by the hierarchy' is more graphic than a meaningful statement. Having spent a fair number of years writing about the financial crisis within county cricket, it is easy to become cynical when you see how various hierarchies have made promises to their Members only for them to collapse into a heap of debt and destructive default. At Sussex we have been incredibly lucky with our £10.6m legacy which has allowed the club to redevelop Hove without needing to borrow. Your comment, "it was a condition of granting first class status that Durham build an international venue..." is something I was not fully aware of. I carried out some research and came across an excellent feature in All Out Cricket which describes the history of Durham where it says, "Most draconian was the stipulation that Durham had to build a ground capable of hosting Test cricket, even though only 11 of the existing 17 counties had such a facility." So, I apologise. That last sentence intrigues me. Who are these 11? Although the phrase, "had to build a ground capable of hosting Test cricket" suggests it wasn't mandatory and the ECB were not holding a gun to the club. www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/durham-nightwatchmanEven so, the critic might argue the Durham hierarchy could have made a better fist of the redevelopment. Somerset have transformed themselves into an ODI ground with little debt burden; Nottinghamshire and Lancashire have improved and refurbished their grounds with excellent business acumen and so on. What I can't fathom is that Durham's £7.5m deficit does not seem a lot when compared with other TMGs and yet, on this sum, the club seemingly are unable to pay off even the interest. Perhaps, you can enlighten us on the reasons? Glamorgan just gave two fingers to their £15m debt and demanded and got a 70% haircut on their creditor loans. Warwickshire are given regular payment holidays on their £20m borrowing from the Birmingham City Council. And of course, we all know about Yorkshire and the Colin Graves piggy bank. Did the Durham hierarchy make bad interest deals on their credit?** www.chesterlestreetadvertiser.co.uk/sport/durhamccc/14766983.Durham_County_Cricket_Club_debts_hit___7_5m__club_report_reveals/I agree the ECB have been unfair to recently created TMGs but 9 doesn't go into 5 - particularly when the only major money-spinner are the Ashes tests. The Laurel & Hardy quote, "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into" comes to mind. And as you say, offering second rate Test matches in May to Glamorgan or Durham makes little sense. Once more, commisserations on your plight. I really hope the financial difficulties can be fairly resolved. ** I have just answered my own question. It resides within the Chester le Street Advertiser article. "Two council loans, totalling almost £4m, were being repaid at 4.7 and 6.5 per cent, while the charge to the Local Enterprise Partnership was 7.49 per cent on a loan which fell from a little more than £1m, to £842,852. There also existed bank loans, of almost £1m, charged at two per cent, as was a loan of £1,400,000 from the ECB." Perhaps, leedsgull can confirm but not even Colin Graves is daring to charge more than 4% on his loans - some are at 3.25%. As for Warwickshire their debt interest rate is well under 5%. A great shame Durham could not extend their bank loans at a very fair 2%.
|
|
|
Post by northfan on Sept 28, 2016 16:06:37 GMT
northfan, First, it's an honour to have a Forum Member from Durham CCC. You are one of only a very few. This must be a difficult and uncertain time for Durham supporters and I am sure everyone on this Board wishes you all the best for a positive outcome at the club. As to your queries. At times, I can get carried away with my writing. The phrase 'sucked in by the hierarchy' is more graphic than a meaningful statement. Having spent a fair number of years writing about the financial crisis within county cricket, it is easy to become cynical when you see how various hierarchies have made promises to their Members only for them to collapse into a heap of debt and destructive default. At Sussex we have been incredibly lucky with our £10.6m legacy which has allowed the club to redevelop Hove without needing to borrow. Your comment, "it was a condition of granting first class status that Durham build an international venue..." is something I was not fully aware of. I carried out some research and came across an excellent feature in All Out Cricket which describes the history of Durham where it says, "Most draconian was the stipulation that Durham had to build a ground capable of hosting Test cricket, even though only 11 of the existing 17 counties had such a facility." So, I apologise. That last sentence intrigues me. Who are these 11? www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/durham-nightwatchmanAlthough, the critic might argue the Durham hierarchy could have made a better fist of this. Somerset have transformed themselves into an ODI ground with little debt burden; Nottinghamshire and Lancashire have improved and redeveloped their grounds with excellent business acumen and so on. What I can't fathom is that Durham's £7.5m deficit does not seem a lot when compared with other TMGs and yet, on this sum, the club seemingly are unable to pay off even the interest. Perhaps, you can enlighten us on the reasons? Glamorgan just gave two fingers to their £15m debt and demanded and got a 70% haircut on their creditor loans. Warwickshire are given regular payment holidays on their £20m borrowing from the Birmingham City Council. And of course, we all know about Yorkshire and the Colin Graves piggy bank. Did the Durham hierarchy make bad interest deals on their credit?** www.chesterlestreetadvertiser.co.uk/sport/durhamccc/14766983.Durham_County_Cricket_Club_debts_hit___7_5m__club_report_reveals/I agree the ECB have been unfair to recently created TMGs but 9 doesn't go into 5 - particularly when the only major money-spinner are the Ashes tests. The Laurel & Hardy quote, "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into" comes to mind. And as you say, offering second rate Test matches in May to Glamorgan or Durham makes little sense. Once more, commisserations on your plight. I really hope the financial difficulties can be fairly resolved. ** I have just answered my own question. It resides within the Chester le Street Advertiser article. "Two council loans, totalling almost £4m, were being repaid at 4.7 and 6.5 per cent, while the charge to the Local Enterprise Partnership was 7.49 per cent on a loan which fell from a little more than £1m, to £842,852. There also existed bank loans, of almost £1m, charged at two per cent, as was a loan of £1,400,000 from the ECB." Perhaps, leedsgull can confirm but not even Colin Graves is daring to charge more than 4% on his loans - some are at 3.25%. As for Warwickshire their debt interest rate is well under 5%. A great shame Durham could not extend their bank loans at a very fair 2%. I'm actually a long time follower of Sussex, dating back to the Ted Dexter era, long before first class cricket ever came to Durham. I can't call myself a supporter as the only time I ever get to see Sussex ' in the flesh' is when they come to Durham which sadly didn't happen this season but in a Sussex v Durham fixture I would be rooting for Sussex,although normally Sussex fare miserably at Chester-le-Street. I was a very occasional poster on the previous forum but used it mainly to be kept up to date with what was happening at Sussex CCC by those a little closer to the club. I really just wanted to take issue with your comment regarding there not being a market for International cricket this far north, as there certainly is but counties such as Durham and Glamorgan are severely handicapped under the current bidding system. Regarding the current financial position at Durham, a points deduction coupled with the loss of Stoneman and Borthwick could well spell relegation next season, which would give rise to mixed emotions should Sussex gain promotion.
|
|
|
Post by moderator1 on Sept 28, 2016 16:35:17 GMT
Thanks northfan. We welcome you to this forum whether you choose to post or just to follow what is going on, though it is very good to get a different perspective, as your discussion with softandfluffy has shown. The bidding system for Test matches is one of the most blatant examples of how the current structure has become unsustainable.
|
|
|
Post by coverpoint on Sept 30, 2016 11:09:16 GMT
The ECB will be delighted if some counties go out of business, no interest from them at all in helping county cricket.
Fewer counties will mean that each of the surviving clubs will receive a larger share of the city franchise loot.
The surviving clubs can then repay any debts a lot quicker, which will obviously benefit anyone who is owed a lot of money.
An alternative would be to let those who have been financially irresponsible to go out of business.4
Surrey need to be at the top of the game because they are the biggest county, there should be no free hand outs in sport, although football managers obviously think otherwise.
What a typically arrogant view from a Surrey supporter. How about getting rid of Surrey instead on account of the fact its fans are a load of merchant bankers (or something rhyming with that)? Personally I can't see the justification for having two test grounds in London.
|
|