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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 13:53:06 GMT
This year's accounts for Somerset are on their website. They show a remarkable growth in direct cricket income.
Membership. Match income. £000
Somerset 2016. 850. 687 Somerset 2015. 736. 547
Sussex 2015. 347. 627
The comparison between Sussex and Somerset (reasonably comparable counties), does not make happy reading for Sussex, especially with regard to membership income.
On edit, sorry the figures above don''t align, but for each year, the first figure is membership income, and the second match receipts.
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Post by flashblade on Dec 1, 2016 14:21:22 GMT
There is no requirement to obtain a valuation of buildings every year. The auditors have qualified their report because Somerset have blatantly ignored a fundamental accounting standard. In my experience, this decision will have been taken in order to avoid publishing a lower, more realistic, bottom line result. They may suppose that most fans will not bother to attempt to work out the significance of the audit qualification. I'm well aware of the requirements of building valuations but I still stand by my comment re material differences of asset net book value versus current market value.i obviously don't know the reason that Somerset adopt the accounting policy it does but I doubt it's to 'hoodwink' fans! But the auditors wouldn't have a current market value of buildings available each year, would they? So how would they assess the difference versus book value? 'Hoodwink' is a strong word, but it'll do. While we're on the subject of misleading the layman, Somerset, like other counties, love to headline their EBITDA 'profit'. This measure has long been discredited in profit announcements, precisely because it is nowhere near a bottom line figure.
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Post by flashblade on Dec 1, 2016 14:24:59 GMT
This year's accounts for Somerset are on their website. They show a remarkable growth in direct cricket income. Membership. Match income. £000 Somerset 2016. 850. 687 Somerset 2015. 736. 547 Sussex 2015. 347. 627 The comparison between Sussex and Somerset (reasonably comparable counties), does not make happy reading for Sussex, especially with regard to membership income. On edit, sorry the figures above don''t align, but for each year, the first figure is membership income, and the second match receipts. I wonder if their subscriptions are more attractively priced than those at Sussex?
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Dec 1, 2016 16:26:26 GMT
nf, Looks like we'll have to have that beer at Hove in May.May 21st-24th - let me know the best day nearer the time. The first round's on me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 19:36:47 GMT
I'm well aware of the requirements of building valuations but I still stand by my comment re material differences of asset net book value versus current market value.i obviously don't know the reason that Somerset adopt the accounting policy it does but I doubt it's to 'hoodwink' fans! But the auditors wouldn't have a current market value of buildings available each year, would they? So how would they assess the difference versus book value? 'Hoodwink' is a strong word, but it'll do. While we're on the subject of misleading the layman, Somerset, like other counties, love to headline their EBITDA 'profit'. This measure has long been discredited in profit announcements, precisely because it is nowhere near a bottom line figure. Are assets such as computer equipment, company cars, office furniture etc treated for depreciation purposes on the same basis as buildings (albeit perhaps on a shorter time frame) ? If so that's illogical. Some assets become obsolete and worthless. But buildings - even if they are in need of modernisation and repair - invariably increase in value. When was the last time the property market went down? Take a look at any estate agents listings and even properties advertised as 'in need of improvement' are worth 100 times what they were worth 50 years ago. Example. Our house was sold at auction in 1958 for £2,500 -I know because we have a copy of the bill of sale. Last time we had it valued a in 2014, we were advised that it would go on the market at £1.25 million. We've spent zero money on it since we bought it 12 years ago, but if we sold it at the agent's valuation we would make a 25 per cent profit on what we paid for it. So how has our asset 'depreciated'? I can see how other assets have depreciated. I've had to buy two new computers and had three new cars in the time we've lived here. But in terms of the house, we are sitting on an ever-growing gold mine. Where is the depreciation? Am I missing something?
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Post by northfan on Dec 1, 2016 20:35:29 GMT
But the auditors wouldn't have a current market value of buildings available each year, would they? So how would they assess the difference versus book value? 'Hoodwink' is a strong word, but it'll do. While we're on the subject of misleading the layman, Somerset, like other counties, love to headline their EBITDA 'profit'. This measure has long been discredited in profit announcements, precisely because it is nowhere near a bottom line figure. Are assets such as computer equipment, company cars, office furniture etc treated for depreciation purposes on the same basis as buildings (albeit perhaps on a shorter time frame) ? If so that's illogical. Some assets become obsolete and worthless. But buildings - even if they are in need of modernisation and repair - invariably increase in value. When was the last time the property market went down? Take a look at any estate agents listings and even properties advertised as 'in need of improvement' are worth 100 times what they were worth 50 years ago. Example. Our house was sold at auction in 1958 for £2,500 -I know because we have a copy of the bill of sale. Last time we had it valued a in 2014, we were advised that it would go on the market at £1.25 million. We've spent zero money on it since we bought it 12 years ago, but if we sold it at the agent's valuation we would make a 25 per cent profit on what we paid for it. So how has our asset 'depreciated'? I can see how other assets have depreciated. I've had to buy two new computers and had three new cars in the time we've lived here. But in terms of the house, we are sitting on an ever-growing gold mine. Where is the depreciation? Am I missing something? Yes, fixtures and fittings are treated exactly the same as freehold property for depreciation purposes, ( as long as it's not investment property) albeit they are written down over different time scales and that is exactly the point I was making. For once we're singing from the same hymn sheet.
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Post by coverpoint on Dec 1, 2016 20:39:13 GMT
This year's accounts for Somerset are on their website. They show a remarkable growth in direct cricket income. Membership. Match income. £000 Somerset 2016. 850. 687 Somerset 2015. 736. 547 Sussex 2015. 347. 627 The comparison between Sussex and Somerset (reasonably comparable counties), does not make happy reading for Sussex, especially with regard to membership income. On edit, sorry the figures above don''t align, but for each year, the first figure is membership income, and the second match receipts. I wonder if their subscriptions are more attractively priced than those at Sussex? It is £55 (20%) cheaper to watch first division cricket at Somerset than second division cricket at Sussex. Perhaps Jim can explain the logic of Sussex's pricing relative to first division counties. www.somersetcountycc.co.uk/tickets/membership/#QFlwHfYjxiY8Q9zY.97
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 21:03:04 GMT
Are assets such as computer equipment, company cars, office furniture etc treated for depreciation purposes on the same basis as buildings (albeit perhaps on a shorter time frame) ? If so that's illogical. Some assets become obsolete and worthless. But buildings - even if they are in need of modernisation and repair - invariably increase in value. When was the last time the property market went down? Take a look at any estate agents listings and even properties advertised as 'in need of improvement' are worth 100 times what they were worth 50 years ago. Example. Our house was sold at auction in 1958 for £2,500 -I know because we have a copy of the bill of sale. Last time we had it valued a in 2014, we were advised that it would go on the market at £1.25 million. We've spent zero money on it since we bought it 12 years ago, but if we sold it at the agent's valuation we would make a 25 per cent profit on what we paid for it. So how has our asset 'depreciated'? I can see how other assets have depreciated. I've had to buy two new computers and had three new cars in the time we've lived here. But in terms of the house, we are sitting on an ever-growing gold mine. Where is the depreciation? Am I missing something? Yes, fixtures and fittings are treated exactly the same as freehold property for depreciation purposes, ( as long as it's not investment property) albeit they are written down over different time scales and that is exactly the point I was making. For once we're singing from the same hymn sheet.I'm not sure we are, fb, because I'm saying that it makes no logical sense - and, if I understand you correctly, you think that it does? How can the same accounting principle of so-called 'depreciation' apply to a computer that after a few years is so worthless that it is only good for taking to the council dump and a house that goes up in value with every year that passes?
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Post by flashblade on Dec 1, 2016 21:26:08 GMT
Are assets such as computer equipment, company cars, office furniture etc treated for depreciation purposes on the same basis as buildings (albeit perhaps on a shorter time frame) ? If so that's illogical. Some assets become obsolete and worthless. But buildings - even if they are in need of modernisation and repair - invariably increase in value. When was the last time the property market went down? Take a look at any estate agents listings and even properties advertised as 'in need of improvement' are worth 100 times what they were worth 50 years ago. Example. Our house was sold at auction in 1958 for £2,500 -I know because we have a copy of the bill of sale. Last time we had it valued a in 2014, we were advised that it would go on the market at £1.25 million. We've spent zero money on it since we bought it 12 years ago, but if we sold it at the agent's valuation we would make a 25 per cent profit on what we paid for it. So how has our asset 'depreciated'? I can see how other assets have depreciated. I've had to buy two new computers and had three new cars in the time we've lived here. But in terms of the house, we are sitting on an ever-growing gold mine. Where is the depreciation? Am I missing something? Yes, fixtures and fittings are treated exactly the same as freehold property for depreciation purposes, ( as long as it's not investment property) albeit they are written down over different time scales and that is exactly the point I was making. For once we're singing from the same hymn sheet. You cannot compare residential property with commercial buildings. To illustrate - say you start a business from scratch, you buy some land (this will probably increase in value - no need to depreciate), and then you erect a building (factory, workshop, office, whatever). The cost of the building is not written off against the year 1 profits - instead it is written off over the estimated useful life of the building, ie it is depreciated. Many commercial buildings (not all) become obsolete or redundant eventually. 50 years is the maximum assumed life of assets that need to be depreciated, and you could argue that this figure is either to small or too large - however, current accounting standards stipulate 50 years maximum. Cricket buildings are a good illustration of the difference between commercial and residential property. When you sell your house, you are selling the land and building(s) combined, and there is a ready market for this combined asset. Contrast - Sussex could never have sold the Gilligan Stand - at any time, at any price, because it was physically intrinsic to the business. The club did not depreciate the asset, but (surprise, surprise) it eventually needed replacing - not because it didn't function, but because it was obsolete in terms of the club's ongoing requirements. The same principle applied to the old SW stand. So, the Spen Cama legacy was manna from heaven; it (luckily) avoided the need to borrow money for the new buildings. Other counties did not have a fairy godmother, and have had to resort to hefty borrowings. The point of depreciation charges is to set aside a chunk of profits each year to enable the eventual replacement of assets to be more easily afforded. It is easier to accept that computers and cars need to be depreciated because they are short term assets, and we can foresee the need to replace them. Understandably, most people don't see the need to depreciate buildings, because 50 years is a long time, and anyway they won't be around to sort out the finance when they eventually need replacing. . .
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Post by northfan on Dec 1, 2016 21:29:23 GMT
Yes, fixtures and fittings are treated exactly the same as freehold property for depreciation purposes, ( as long as it's not investment property) albeit they are written down over different time scales and that is exactly the point I was making. For once we're singing from the same hymn sheet.I'm not sure we are, fb, because I'm saying that it makes no logical sense - and, if I understand you correctly, you think that it does? How can the same accounting principle of so-called 'depreciation' apply to a computer that after a few years is so worthless that it is only good for taking to the council dump and a house that goes up in value with every year that passes? That last post you quoted was mine, not FB
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Post by northfan on Dec 1, 2016 21:48:35 GMT
Yes, fixtures and fittings are treated exactly the same as freehold property for depreciation purposes, ( as long as it's not investment property) albeit they are written down over different time scales and that is exactly the point I was making. For once we're singing from the same hymn sheet. You cannot compare residential property with commercial buildings. To illustrate - say you start a business from scratch, you buy some land (this will probably increase in value - no need to depreciate), and then you erect a building (factory, workshop, office, whatever). The cost of the building is not written off against the year 1 profits - instead it is written off over the estimated useful life of the building, ie it is depreciated. Many commercial buildings (not all) become obsolete or redundant eventually. 50 years is the maximum assumed life of assets that need to be depreciated, and you could argue that this figure is either to small or too large - however, current accounting standards stipulate 50 years maximum. Cricket buildings are a good illustration of the difference between commercial and residential property. When you sell your house, you are selling the land and building(s) combined, and there is a ready market for this combined asset. Contrast - Sussex could never have sold the Gilligan Stand - at any time, at any price, because it was physically intrinsic to the business. The club did not depreciate the asset, but (surprise, surprise) it eventually needed replacing - not because it didn't function, but because it was obsolete in terms of the club's ongoing requirements. The same principle applied to the old SW stand. So, the Spen Cama legacy was manna from heaven; it (luckily) avoided the need to borrow money for the new buildings. Other counties did not have a fairy godmother, and have had to resort to hefty borrowings. The point of depreciation charges is to set aside a chunk of profits each year to enable the eventual replacement of assets to be more easily afforded. It is easier to accept that computers and cars need to be depreciated because they are short term assets, and we can foresee the need to replace them. Understandably, most people don't see the need to depreciate buildings, because 50 years is a long time, and anyway they won't be around to sort out the finance when they eventually need replacing. . . Whilst I agree with a lot of what you have writen here, I have to differ with you on what you claim to be the point of depreciation. I very much doubt that many ( if any) corporations set aside a cash sum equal to the annual depreciation charge in order to fund asset replacement. " The fundamental objective of depreciation is to reflect in operating profit the cost of use of the tangible fixed assets (ie amount of economic benefits consumed) in the period" (paragraph 78, Financial Reporting Standard 15). and with that I'll leave it there as I'm sure a discussion regarding accounting standards is not what people log onto this forum for.
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Post by northfan on Dec 2, 2016 18:11:47 GMT
As a postscript here, Somerset's 2016 accounts reveal that the land and buildings have been revalued( upwards) and contain no auditors qualification re depreciation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 21:23:44 GMT
As a postscript here, Somerset's 2016 accounts reveal that the land and buildings have been revalued( upwards) and contain no auditors qualification re depreciation. So, does this mean the sceptics on here about Somerset's financials should recant, and acknowledge what anyone who has visited their ground recently can see? Their transformation over the last ten years, under Chairman, entrepreneur Nash, is remarkable. No trophies over this period, but off field, a 90% increase in membership income (Sussex membership income down over same period). Virtuous circle as catering, commercial performance also much better. Taken on some debt to massively improve ground facilities and capacity, but debt easily covered, as seen in the accounts. Now a Category B ground, so will host international games and, if goes ahead the City T20, previous capacity, probably less than Sussex. And look at the details of the accounts published by Somerset on their website. Even down to telephone usage. It would be great if Sussex provided even half that detail to their members, rather than the aggregate numbers we have become accustomed to?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2016 0:54:37 GMT
As a postscript here, Somerset's 2016 accounts reveal that the land and buildings have been revalued( upwards) and contain no auditors qualification re depreciation. So, does this mean the sceptics on here about Somerset's financials should recant, and acknowledge what anyone who has visited their ground recently can see? Their transformation over the last ten years, under Chairman, entrepreneur Nash, is remarkable. No trophies over this period, but off field, a 90% increase in membership income (Sussex membership income down over same period). Virtuous circle as catering, commercial performance also much better. Taken on some debt to massively improve ground facilities and capacity, but debt easily covered, as seen in the accounts. Now a Category B ground, so will host international games and, if goes ahead the City T20, previous capacity, probably less than Sussex. And look at the details of the accounts published by Somerset on their website. Even down to telephone usage. It would be great if Sussex provided even half that detail to their members, rather than the aggregate numbers we have become accustomed to? Personally I never had any doubts that Somerset is a model club and has been for some years. It's not just down to Nash; I think it all started when Richard Gould was the CEO. Surrey knew what they were doing when they poaxched him to take over at The Oval. Their finances buck the miserable trend of declining membership and stagnation at almost every county club and although last season they won no trophies, they retained their first division status despite being surrounded by eight TMGs. As the only non-TMG in the division I had them odds-on for relegation before the season started. They also made the RLC semi-finals and I'd say they 'punch above their weight' , both on and off the field, more successfully than any other county and are a model from which all non-TMGs can learn...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2016 9:32:58 GMT
I agree with you BM. As well as Nash and Gould, credit should also go to Giles Clarke, who I believe with Gould was the prime driver of the first, new development, and to Lavender the current CEO who has overseen the more recent developments, and continued to grow the membership. My understanding is that the club changed its rules about Board membership, around 2002, brought in Clarke and Nash, both successful businessmen, as Chair and Vice chair, recognising the existing Board lacked commercial, consumer expertise. So credit to the old Board also, for recognising this.
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