|
Post by flashblade on May 23, 2014 7:36:46 GMT
Interesting that Brooksy feels free to comment publicly, when he is still a witness in the case. It'll be equally interesting to see if May and Robinson feel free to do the same.
|
|
|
Post by piperdog on May 23, 2014 7:56:41 GMT
Our Club should know from the current experience of The Police Federation and others that attempts to deny or diminish unsavoury events will not suppress the truth over time. And that goes for cronies on the previous Board who felt that disclosure was somehow damaging to our beloved Club. On the contrary still more honesty is required or we will still be in receipt of rumour for months to come and discovering as in this case that it is based on fact.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 8:34:37 GMT
To be fair, I am certain that Sussex CCC has acted correctly and properly in all respects throughout this case - except in one crucial area: the handling of its public pronouncements (and now non-pronouncements). This has created a perception that is almost certainly wrong that Sussex has been economical with the truth/is in a state of denial/has something to hide. I'nm sure none of these things are true, but if that is the perception created then the 'brand' is severely damaged.
As said before, legal ramifications mean there are certain issues that the club cannot and should not address publicly right now and the ECB may also have advised Sussex to say nothing. But that means say nothing on the specific charges or about the two players concerned. It does not prevent a general statement expressing profound regret and a 100 per cent determination to preserve the integrity of the game and to root out and expose wrong-doers and to take action against them.
You might say all those things are platitudes and are taken as read; but in my view it urgently needs saying as a statement of intent to protect the Sussex 'brand' and reassure supporters who must now be wondering how many other matches we have seen down the years which were thrown by Sussex players who were paid by the club to go out there and win - and by someone else to go out there and lose.
Well said Dave Brooks (although like fb I was also surprised that he has spoken out as an ongoing witness in the case). But DB does not speak for Sussex any longer and his words are no substitute for an official club statement.
All of this leaves a horribly sour taste - not least from the abuse heaped upon those who asked questions about this on the old messageboard when it was first exposed in Ed Hawkins' book in 2012 and again in 2013 when the Mail revealed that the ECB investigation was on-going and that charges against at least one Sussex player were likely to follow.
I wish I could forget about it and look forward to the game v Hants tonight. But the integrity of Sussex cricket has taken such a battering over the last 24 hours that quite frankly I couldn't care ruddy less about tonight's game at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by flashblade on May 23, 2014 9:03:50 GMT
I agree with much of what you say BM, but the waters still look pretty muddy to me. I wish it would all go away, but it won't.
According to reports I/we have read, (and please correct me if this is wrong) - in one suspect match, a player who decided not to participate in the fix revealed in the dressing room afterwards that the match had been fixed. In another match, the player who had fixed the match threw a celebration afterwards in the dressing room. If this is the case, then the innocent players found out about it after the match. So, either they kept quiet about it (!) or they reported it to the club. Assuming the latter, then the club had 1st hand knowledge of the fix immediately after each match. Why was no case brought against the corrupt players at the time?
If there's a flaw in my logic, I'd be relieved to hear it!
|
|
|
Post by twelvegrand on May 23, 2014 9:30:02 GMT
Flashblade - as far as I can tell the former is true but I haven't seen anything about the latter. And that's the key - someone who was approached did not report that until after that match had been fixed. If they'd have done that now they'd have end up on a failure to report an approach charge with aggravating feature of having failed to prevent a fix. As per my posts above that is crucial because other Sussex games that season look very suspicious notably this match. The issues under question in that match are related to performance and decisions. I either failed to hit send on a post (or my post was deleted?) yesterday before charges were laid that referred to the "minor hypocrisy" on the old board about Essex and Sussex's relative behaviour. Given what we know as of now Sussex have more to convince us of in terms of dressing room culture. I read Ed Hawkin's book won the day it came out and posted about the book in a separate thread and about the Sussex position in the dedicated thread. I enjoyed the debate on the board but I did think double standards were applied because it was sussex. I also posted cryptically the rumour (without naming players) that [read the betfair thread if you're so minded] were the players that might have something to do with the case although not necessarily in a fixing respect. We now have a position with people charged which answers part of the issue and clears up speculation/rumour about who deliberately underperformed.......but return to Flashbalde's point there is definitely a question about who was approached and only reported after the match. Sussex must issue a statement of the type suggested in excellent posts by others to lance the boil of silence and show we will act decisively. Of course it can't go into specifics but it can be a statement of principle on player conduct, support for whistleblowers and club action where wrongdoing is found. Obviously that's harder because of the 2012 statement and fact Arif/Vincent were quietly let go but it's time to show what Sussex as a club stand for. Weirdly this isn't the case for me - I suspect because I've factored this into my thinking (mental accounting of Sussex's position?) since 2012 I'm still completely up for the cricket. Mind you I can't watch too much Twenty20 because every time someone adjusts a wrist band or calls for a bat my mind assumes I'm about to see a maiden, wide or a wicket! [EDIT - I do realise there is no such thing as spot fixing for single events but I expect to see the 5 over bracket influenced]
|
|
|
Post by stevehollis75 on May 23, 2014 9:38:37 GMT
I read with interest all your thoughts on this issue. I am looking for a Sussex supporter/member to give their views in The Argus tomorrow. Anyone interested? If so drop me an email at stephen.hollis@theargus.co.uk.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 9:50:21 GMT
After what happened to Tony Palladino at Essex, I agree with twelvegrand that support for whistleblowers needs to be stressed and emphasised by both Sussex and the ECB.
Dressing rooms can have a complex set of conflicting loyalties, and from what I understand of the Essex case, there was a section of the dressing room that was as angry with Palladino's "disloyalty" for blowing the whistle as they were with Kaneiria and Westfield. I think things have moved on a bit since then with new rules and codes and the PCA's extensive programme of instruction in these matters. But it would do no harm whatsoever to stress support and protection for whistleblowers as strongly as possible - especially as Vincent claiming he's in hiding and in fear of his life is hardly going to encourage anyone to speak out if they think to do so could risk reprisals.
|
|
|
Post by twelvegrand on May 23, 2014 9:54:14 GMT
Borderman - great post. We had a good debate about that on the old board. My point was always that no matter what the previous/current culture was we should be promoting and valuing a culture of zero tolerance and loyalty to an ethos. This could be as strong for team bonding in the long term as any culture of "watching the whole team's back".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 11:12:15 GMT
Just had a look at the Sussex website to see if the club has been prompted into saying anything - and there is still no acknowledgement that Sussex CCC has just made front page headlines around the world for the first time since Captain Grieg led the breakaway Packer rebels 37 years ago, Instead, the big stories at the county ground 24 hours after the most shameful day in Sussex cricket history are "Friday Feeding Frenzy for Natwest T20 Blast clash" and "Development XI in narrow win over Brighton & Hove".
If the issue wasn't so serious and hadn't delivered such a body blow to the integrity of the game, the refusal to engage with the biggest story to hit Sussex cricket in decades would be comic. Instead it just looks shifty.
|
|
|
Post by flashblade on May 23, 2014 11:22:28 GMT
Just had a look at the Sussex website to see if the club has been prompted into saying anything - and there is still no acknowledgement that Sussex CCC has just made front page headlines around the world for the first time since Captain Grieg led the breakaway Packer rebels 37 years ago, Instead, the big stories at the county ground 24 hours after the most shameful day in Sussex cricket history are "Friday Feeding Frenzy for Natwest T20 Blast clash" and "Development XI in narrow win over Brighton & Hove". If the issue wasn't so serious and hadn't delivered such a body blow to the integrity of the game, the refusal to engage with the biggest story to hit Sussex cricket in decades would be comic. Instead it just looks shifty. Agree with your sentiments, but lawyers' advice has to over-ride other considerations at present, I guess. There will be a feeling of intense embarrassment within the club at the moment, compounded by the frustration of being ordered to keep schtum.
|
|
|
Post by hhsussex on May 23, 2014 11:29:28 GMT
I think Sussex need to learn some lessons in marketing from ECB. Faced with the drip-drip-drip of suspicion and cynicism about the integrity of their prize property, the financial saviour of the game, it seems that ECB have pushed to bring out into the open all of the half-truths and whispers about Vincent and others, and may have encouraged the leaking of his testimony. Their attitude seems to be that the boil is messy enough as it is, so lance it now and then let the sore place gradually knit and in time it will appear smooth and unblemished.
By contrast Sussex risk giving the appearance that they don't much care what's happened in the past so long as you suckers roll up with your £25 for tonight's hit and miss. I'm very sure that is not the case, and there is probably a great deal of crisis discussion taking place behind the silence. The problem that they have created for themselves is that earlier false assurance that "nothing untoward" has taken place. How do they move away from that to an admission that what happened was known about, was buried for lack of cast-iron evidence at the time, and will never happen again because it is against the club ethos, the new PCA procedures, and all the other points in the excellent posts above from borderman and twelvegrad.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 11:30:50 GMT
What you say may be the case, fb, but that doesn't prevent a statement along the lines called for by twelvegrand which "can't go into specifics but can be a statement of principle on player conduct, support for whistleblowers and club action where wrongdoing is found." Nor does it prevent a straight news report which should at least quote the ECB statement if Sussex feels it cannot make any statement itself.
As it is, the news section of the Sussex website gives every impression of living in some bizarre parallel universe where the sun always shines and T20 "frenzy" is the natural state of being.
|
|
|
Post by angleseymartlet on May 23, 2014 11:32:19 GMT
I am becoming increasingly concerned at the course of this discussion. It should be remembered that, although this is now an unofficial messageboard, this does not give carte blanche for innuendoes and speculative "revelations" without fear of legal comeback, and also that innocent people can be damaged in this way. Moreover, in the case of the player allegedly "approached", comment with the benefit of hindsight can easily distort the picture: if he was approached, the interval between the approach and reporting might not have been as long as it can seem to have been, allowing for little more than time for the player to process his thoughts, perhaps even under [perceived] intimidating pressure. Remember the test match collision, many years ago, between John Snow and Sunil Gavaskar: it was over in a flash, but endless television replays in slow motion made it seem increasingly sinful; the circumstances were very different, but the analogy is apt and cautionary.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 11:33:38 GMT
Brooks said: “From a Sussex point of view we did all we could at the time. We reported it and passed it on to the ECB who passed it on to the ICC. They looked into it and from their records with the gambling firms they couldn’t see enough evidence to take it further forward."
That certainly isn't the same as 16-Nov-2012 Sussex CCC are aware of a book recently released by Ed Hawkins, entitled “Bookie Gambler Fixer Spy: A Journey to the Corrupt Heart of Cricket’s Underworld", in which Sussex’s Clydesdale Bank 40 match with Kent in August 2011 is mentioned, a match that was shown live on Sky. The Club can confirm approaches were made to players regarding this game. Working with the PCA, the Club investigated and reported the issue at the time, passing all the information promptly to the ECB after the match. In conjunction with the ICC, a full investigation was undertaken with nothing untoward coming to light, and the Club's prompt action receiving praise. There have been no further reports made to the Club concerning any Sussex matches. As a Club, we are committed to ensuring that the game’s integrity is not breached at any time and we will continue to take a full and leading role in the ECB’s endeavours to protect the game.So, if Dave Brooks is not being misquoted, he is saying that the club statement was either untrue or very carelessly written. This looks like getting very messy indeed. It seems that the statement made by sussex in 2012 has been widely criticized as untrue. But it seems to me it was clear and true at the time. sussex reported that players had been approached and co operated with an ICC investigation which came to nothing. In late 2012 they said this.ICC now say they had not " cleared"that the match was not fixed. That also may be true because their investigation failed to bring anything to light. it would appear that the ECB charges now laid have only become possible because of the confession by LouVincent,which also implicated Arif. Vincent is a rather pathetic character with a long history of mental illness that has marred his career. It is also true that other statements have been made by his wife and Brendan mccullum that may be very credible and support Vincent ,especially by naming the mastermind as another former New Zealand test player that they looked up to. until the charges are heard and a decision made ,it would seem inappropriate for sussex to comment further. It is best the authorities conclude the case first. Brooksy has merely reiterated that they did all they could in 2011 and by 2012 ICC had not found sufficient evidence to proceed further. What is interesting is that it is not clear what took place between 2012 and now that led to the Lou Vincent confession,the leaking of evidence to the press and the action by ECB. It is to be hoped that finally the whole ugly story will be told,after the charges have been heard and we no longer need to speculate about who may be in the wrong other than Vincent and Arif. But if there are no other charges one may be led to believe that nobody else is being investigated.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 11:43:33 GMT
It seems that the statement made by sussex in 2012 has been widely criticized as untrue. Don't know how widely that has been said, TC; but it is certainly the case that the Daily Telegraph this morning reports that the ICC has "contradicted" the statement Sussex made in 2012 shortly after Dave Brooks left. It's also worth remembering that the statement was only made under duress in response to Ed Hawkins splling the the beans in his book, Bookie Gambler Fixer Spy.
|
|