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Post by hhsussex on May 24, 2014 9:17:21 GMT
First of all,I dont think anyone is thinking this is anything other than a sad chapter in Sussex's history, but I am intrigued about what people on here want to happen next.Someone on here has mentioned that it seriously tarnishes the family image, or something like that. I think the analogy is very apt in this instance. Surely, there is barely a family in the world that has not had a fair share of tragedy or whiff of scandal, often caused by some bad decisions being made. Some families often fall apart under such circumstances, whilst they mete out the blame, seek revenge/recriminations or distance themselves from the whole affair etc. The more successful ones tend to rally round, pull together, move on etc and try to make sure poor decisions arent repeated Obviously in some cases a family members crime is so heinous that the damage is irreparable. From my observations, only Vincent and Arif's crimes are in that category, unless people think that the club is rife with similar corruption, which seems far-fetched. Others may be guilty of naivety and poor decision-making, but like to think these were done in good faith. Anyway, I fully expect this to be shot down in flames by those on here. I am even expecting a bit of abuse. I for one enjoyed last night with my family and friends, will be there at Merchant Taylors on monday and tuesday and am fully expecting to enjoy the rest of the season, despite this terrible episode. I am hoping there are plenty on here who feel they can do the same No reason to fear abuse when you make so many good points and so well. I think there are a number of feelings that posters on here have shown in recent days: outrage, betrayal, anger, and perhaps most of all, that sickening sense of "how much more of this is still to unfold?", that sends a shadow across our perception of current events and deadens the appetite for what is yet to come. That, too, is a characteristic of grief and loss in families. It doesn't mean that all hope has been abandoned or that we can never appreciate things in the same way, but it does imply that there is a need for full disclosure and perhaps a calming period before we can find a way back to expressing that enthusiasm. We're at an early stage in indentifying what is the extent of our loss. We know of Vincent and Arif's perfidity, and from Vincent's testimony there may be other associations with Sussex players that will have to be explored. Until they have been, and satisfactory rebuttals have been made to Vincent's reported suggestions, then we cannot complete this grieving process, because of the fear that another death or betrayal may have occurred. That's the reason why some people look for further, and publicly disclosed action, insofar as the legal process will allow of it.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 10:01:17 GMT
Very thoughtful and perceptive post from hh.
The horrible and iniquitous thing is that the dark revelations of the past few days now make one suspicious of every great or unsusual performance. For example, this morning I looked at the result of yesterday's Somerset v Kent T20 game. In what was reduced to a 13 over match I noticed that Kent, perhaps the weakest batting side in the southern group, smashed an unbelievable 157 in 11 overs off a top attack that included Nannes and Alfie Thomas at a rate of 14 plus per over - and then limply pushed and prodded just seven runs from the final two overs.
Shockingly, my first thought was not 'great win' but 'hello,hello, hello, have Lou's chums been at work again?' I'm certain that was not the case and it was simply that the Kent top three batted out of their skins for 11 overs and then there was some fantastic death bowling by Somerset. But I hate the evil people who have corrupted both the game and now our minds so that we are immediately suspicious of every extraordinary feat that occurs on a cricket field.
And the initial 'move along, nothing to see here' reaction when Ed Hawkins' book was published two years ago does nothing to reassure us that fixing is now what the PCA insists is a "mostly historical" problem and the education programme has eradicated it.
The way I feel at the moment, I won't be going to any more T20s this season or watching them on Sky Sports as the nagging doubts about the integrity of the product has ruined the enjoyment; I agree with George Dobell when he wrote on cricinfo that the fixing scandal has sabotaged the launch of the T20 Bash. But I hope to continue enjoying four day cricket which is thankfully judged too "dull and boring" to attract the interest of the fixers.
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Post by flashblade on May 24, 2014 10:07:05 GMT
good luck with that one, moderators! ?? which one. alythman? Have I missed something?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 10:10:47 GMT
It was deleted
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Post by flashblade on May 24, 2014 10:26:56 GMT
Thanks. That must have been a quick reaction - well done , mods.
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Post by flashblade on May 24, 2014 10:38:26 GMT
Here's a statement from the ICC re the Sussex v Kent match: www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/content/current/story/747235.htmlThey are basically saying that they had never closed the case on this match. Key excerpts: As far as Sussex were concerned, they came to the conclusion at that early stage that this was a clean match. In fact it was through the ACSU's work, including work with Lou Vincent, we came to the conclusion that this match had to be re-examined and we immediately passed on the intelligence to the ECB."
It was, he said, "absolutely and utterly wrong to suggest that in any sense the ICC had given clearance for that match and then a subsequent investigation proved that to be erroneous - that is not the case". To use the term "shut down", Flanagan said, "was not even right."
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Post by flashblade on May 24, 2014 10:46:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 10:58:09 GMT
Here's a statement from the ICC re the Sussex v Kent match: www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/content/current/story/747235.htmlThey are basically saying that they had never closed the case on this match. Key excerpts: As far as Sussex were concerned, they came to the conclusion at that early stage that this was a clean match. In fact it was through the ACSU's work, including work with Lou Vincent, we came to the conclusion that this match had to be re-examined and we immediately passed on the intelligence to the ECB."
It was, he said, "absolutely and utterly wrong to suggest that in any sense the ICC had given clearance for that match and then a subsequent investigation proved that to be erroneous - that is not the case". To use the term "shut down", Flanagan said, "was not even right."This is the 'move along, nothing to see here' reaction that I alluded to earlier and combined with Essex's failings over the Kaneiria/Westfield case it illustrates why I remain sceptical that the counties are capable of getting to grips with problems that may arise in their own dressing rooms.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 12:35:07 GMT
" The horrible and iniquitous thing is that the dark revelations of the past few days now make one suspicious of every great or unsusual performance. For example, this morning I looked at the result of yesterday's Somerset v Kent T20 game. In what was reduced to a 13 over match I noticed that Kent, perhaps the weakest batting side in the southern group, smashed an unbelievable 157 in 11 overs off a top attack that included Nannes and Alfie Thomas at a rate of 14 plus per over - and then limply pushed and prodded just seven runs from the final two overs.
Shockingly, my first thought was not 'great win' but 'hello,hello, hello, have Lou's chums been at work again?' I'm certain that was not the case and it was simply that the Kent top three batted out of their skins for 11 overs and then there was some fantastic death bowling by Somerset. But I hate the evil people who have corrupted both the game and now our minds so that we are immediately suspicious of every extraordinary feat that occurs on a cricket field." That being the same "weakest batting side in the Southern group" that chased down three hundred and thirty odd at Canterbury last year against Sussex? Clearly not, but then the point you make that is valid is that it taints everything else. Not a great deal of chance that Uncle Lou & The Fixers having been at work, as the match wasn't televised. In fact, thanks to the new surface at Birmingham, nothing was televised - so the fixers had a bit of a blank night.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on May 24, 2014 12:50:33 GMT
I have followed the debate with great interest, enjoyed the analogies used and, without wishing to be too sycophantic, congratulate the standard of writing and, in most cases, the fair and even balanced debate shown. This is a strong start for the new MB.
My penny's worth is this.
I would love to believe that Vincent and Arif were the only two club culprits involved. We can then shut the door on this horrific affair and move on to enjoy the majority of the season left... BUT...
Given that Vincent was a serial criminal who may have tainted every team he played for, it may be a little naive to believe this sorry Sussex chapter is already over. And, perhaps, we need courage to keep our minds open to potential further revelations up the road. Meanwhile, is Vincent the key to uncovering a huge problem that has dogged world cricket for many years? And how much can the cricket world sustain without destroying itself. For, how far can the authorities allow the truth of this potential long-term blight to unravel?
Meanwhile, as the ICC distance themselves from the Sussex hierarchy where accusations may continue, how immune are they from this affair? Can blame of a possible cover-up be carried to the top? I very much hope not as I have the highest regard for our excellent hierarchy for whatever happened, they did, for the best of our club.
What we have read this week may just be the start and not the end? Although, to repeat, I very much hope not. The problem with the truth is, once the door is open, it has the ability to keep wriggling out and out and...
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 13:03:07 GMT
Fair point, sheffieldpark. Middlesex's batting probably looks the weakest in the group currently after only managing 111 last night in a full 20 overs and 115 v Sussex last week. But to score at less than six an over in two consecutive matches without being bowled out again gives rises to further suspicions, I guess. Only three weeks ago they scored a record-breaking 472-3 to beat Yorkshire and are currently top of the county championship.The great thing about cricket is that these dramatic reversals of fortune are always possible and indeed fairly frequent - but the game at the moment is ruined by the suspicions that now inevitably arise every time it happens.
On paper the Middx batting is stronger than Kent; but that is only on paper. Last season Sussex had one of the strongest T20 batting line-ups on paper with the likes of Smith and Styris ; but in reality the batting was for the most part inexplicably awful. Could there have been reasons other than merely ficjkle form and fluctuating fortune? You see, here we go again. It's horrible, and is why I have personally declared T20 a no-go area for the rest of the season. I can't have faith in the honesty or integrity of any of it at the moment.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on May 24, 2014 13:05:43 GMT
bm, To help my sanity and enjoyment of watching cricket and having had the good fortune of talking to Chris Watts at some length back in 2012, and realising what an excellent job he's done/doing, anything post 2011 in county cricket is likely to be fair and above board. Between 2007 and 2011, county cricket was a potential match-fixing orgie for Asian criminals after the ECB signed the live TV coverage rights for OD matches. That five year window is where a majority of county cricket fixing occurred. In 2007 Asian rights for live English cricket were sold to ESPN Star Sports for a period of 5 years for 40 million pounds...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_and_Wales_Cricket_Board
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 13:12:58 GMT
The ICC criticism of Sussexs 2012 statement is more than unfortunate as it's nearly two years late. The match was reported in August 2011 by Sussex for investigation. On what basis did Sussex conclude that ICC investigation had found nothing. Their statement was provoked by Hawkins book. They responded that we reported it, ICC investigated and up to now,nov 2012, nothing untoward has come to light. ICC did not make a statement about ongoing nvestigation or contradict Sussex till now. Clearly they are arse covering on a spinning wicket. All the new info has come from Vincent's statement and confession. Quite the circumstances in which this happened and then was leaked to the telegraph I don't know. But that might be interesting to learn. Vincent himself is an interesting character and should not be dismissed simply as a serial criminal. He has suffered from mental illness and depression and been institutionalized . A talented player , he was out of the game for some time and was really in desperate financial circumstances when Sussex took a chance on him. He may be able to blow this whole thing open ( revealing the masterminds and sources of bribes)and bring some closure to it. Read this old article written in 2011 about Vincent. www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/lou-vincent-my-depression-is-an-ongoing-battle-day-to-day-its-there-2296795.html
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 13:27:57 GMT
bm, To help my sanity and enjoyment of watching cricket and having had the good fortune of talking to Chris Watts at some length back in 2012, and realising what an excellent job he's done/doing, anything post 2012 in county cricket is highly likely to be fair and above board. I have also talked to Chris Watts. In fact, I was interviewed by him after I passed on suspicions expressed privately by three players that a T20 quarter-final in 2011 had been fixed (not involving Sussex). The players were also interviewed and in the event there was insufficient evidence and charges were never laid; but I was enormously impressed by his calm but rigorous and tough-minded approach to the investigation. But the episode also reinforced my view that counties are ill-equipped to get grips with problems in their own dressing rooms and it requires trained police officers such as Mr Watts. The county concerned had heard the same gossip and chatter from its players that I had, buit did not report it, presumably due to lack of evidence. But in reality every hint of suspicion has to be reported so that those with the trained skills to investigate - such as Mr Watts - are able to do so. There is a long and thoughtful piece here by Mark Nicholas : www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/746669.htmlFor those who don't have time to read it all, I'd highlight this passage and commend it to Sussex CCC: "Whistle-blowing should be a duty and must be applauded, not frowned upon. Open discussion about doubtful behaviour and passages of play should become the norm, so that anything underhand is quickly exposed. We have all been guilty of whispering. We have all seen things we have questioned. If we are to rid the game of corruption we shall have to speak freely about our suspicions and concerns. There really is no other way. "Glad you have broken your silence on the subject, s&f. You started the thread and I was very keen to know what your take on events of the past fews days might be...
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Post by hhsussex on May 24, 2014 13:40:16 GMT
The ICC criticism of Sussexs 2012 statement is more than unfortunate as it's nearly two years late. The match was reported in August 2011 by Sussex for investigation. On what basis did Sussex conclude that ICC investigation had found nothing. Their statement was provoked by Hawkins book. They responded that we reported it, ICC investigated and up to now,nov 2012, nothing untoward has come to light. ICC did not make a statement about ongoing nvestigation or contradict Sussex till now. Clearly they are arse covering on a spinning wicket. All the new info has come from Vincent's statement and confession. Quite the circumstances in which this happened and then was leaked to the telegraph I don't know. But that might be interesting to learn. Vincent himself is an interesting character and should not be dismissed simply as a serial criminal. He has suffered from mental illness and depression and been institutionalized . A talented player , he was out of the game for some time and was really in desperate financial circumstances when Sussex took a chance on him. He may be able to blow this whole thing open ( revealing the masterminds and sources of bribes)and bring some closure to it. Read this old article written in 2011 about Vincent. www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/lou-vincent-my-depression-is-an-ongoing-battle-day-to-day-its-there-2296795.htmlOf course there is some arse-covering by the ACSU, but it does seem to be vindicated in respect of their contacts with Sussex and the club's stance over the Hawkins allegations by Brooks' recent statement. Brooks said: “From a Sussex point of view we did all we could at the time. We reported it and passed it on to the ECB who passed it on to the ICC. They looked into it and from their records with the gambling firms they couldn’t see enough evidence to take it further forward." Not "nothing untoward has come to light" but not enough evidence; a very critical difference. Something very untoward had come to light, but the ACSU felt that there wasn't a clear lead to follow, and Sussex by its statement clearly implied that the issue was closed and there was nothing to be pursued. TC, this is the second time you've made reference to Lou Vincent's history of depression and mental illness, and I'm beginning to think that you're dropping a few hints yourself. If, as I think you are suggesting, he is so erratic and unreliable that he is likely to be making up stories about who he tried to subborn and who was up for a bribe, then you can't really mean your penultimate sentence about revealing masterminds and sources, because by that logic he's likely to lie about them as well. It does seem that the ACSU and the ECB believe him though, and if this matter is now pursued as rigorously as it should have been in the past, then this will lead to exposing as many of the malefactors, great and little,that had direct contact with him in this affair. I hope it does, and Iim sure that you as a lover of Sussex cricket will want that to happen too.
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