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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 15:43:02 GMT
Just seen the match stats and they are even worse than I realised.
Broad and Anderson 8 for 85 from 55 overs.
Patel/Moeen/Rashid 4 - 275 from 73 overs.
On a turning pitch. And Moeen's two wkts were from rank bad balls.
None of the three spinners are worth a place as a batsman alone so I wouldn't take any of them to SA. If Ansari not fit in time, I'd take Tredwell.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 22:21:36 GMT
Can't help thinking that the current crop of cricket reporters are as poor as England's spinners.
Step forward Scyld Berry whose Telegraph report of today's play inexplicably begins, "With Volkswagen’s reputation having been tarnished this summer by the revelations about carbon emissions, James Anderson has been left as the brand-leader for the finest engine in the European market."
His report concludes: "As Anderson then used the old ball – cherry red on one side, dusty on the other - to reverse-swing both ways, it was advancement through technology or vorsprung durch technik."
WTF is he on about?
Then I turned to Mike Selvey on The Guardian website : "Jimmy Anderson, who has conceded runs as grudgingly as Jeremy Corbyn would his pence on a Tory party flag day..."
Metaphor and analogy are wonderful literary devices when used intelligently. But this is just crap and lazy writing based on 'what's in the headlines on page one today and how can I lift it for an utterly irrelevant link to the back page?'
Selvey and Berry are to Cardus and Arlott what Moeen and Patel are to Laker and Lock!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 9:42:34 GMT
And 89 overs into the innings, an England spinner finally takes a wicket!!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 11:50:27 GMT
The final match tally:
Broad & Anderson 11 -126
Rashid, Moeen and Patel 7 -423
If England lose - and personally I cannot see them getting 284 - the sole reason will be that the spinners failed to do their job.
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Post by philh on Nov 4, 2015 12:50:53 GMT
The final match tally: Broad & Anderson 11 -126 Rashid, Moeen and Patel 7 -423 If England lose - and personally I cannot see them getting 284 - the sole reason will be that the spinners failed to do their job. Can't see how anyone can disagree with that. A lot is resting on Cook, Bell, Root and Taylor. One or two of them need to come up trumps.
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Post by philh on Nov 4, 2015 12:52:18 GMT
Correction: two of the three need to come up trumps
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Post by flashblade on Nov 4, 2015 13:27:41 GMT
Correction: two of the three need to come up trumps and with Stokes injured, we're effectively 3 wickets down.
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Post by hhsussex on Nov 4, 2015 13:43:25 GMT
Of all the many things that could be said about England's performance in this series, the most disappointing to me is that the more the English spinners have bowled the worse they have become. This has nothing to do with the relative amount of response in the wickets: there is as much turn in this wicket now as there appeared to be in Abu Dhabi, certainly on day 5 when Rashid was raising hopes. That's unusual, because you'd expect bowlers who don't often get the chance of a really long bowl to work on their experiences, and if they got clobbered in the first match for bowling too short, spend time in the nets and in the middle getting that fuller length, and so on.
That they haven't done so, and that Cook has reverted to the seamers as first and second lines of attack, only bringing the spinners on because he had to with Stokes absent, suggests that the coaching back-up isn't really working as it should do, encouraging these bowlers to use time in the nets and helping them to learn. I don't know if England have replaced Mushtaq as a spin coach, but I would have thought it would have been pretty useful to have a specialist out there in this environment. In turn that will work against building confidence between Cook and his bowlers, and that is a mutual thing, that he should feel that they are to be persevered with and will come good and that they believe that he will give them time to learn.
Whatever the cause the effect is plain and now there can only be a limited future for any of these bowlers whatever the circumstances. I don't disagree that they've performed badly, but they have performed better and now I think that chance has gone. What chance will there be for a more natural spinner - borderman reckons Ansari for this role - with a captain and coaching set up who will say "We gave our spinners 286 overs on spinning tracks in this series, and their 20 wickets cost 1158 runs. Why should I bowl a spinner for more than a few fill-in overs on greener or bouncier pitches?"
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Post by mrsdoyle on Nov 4, 2015 16:40:57 GMT
Having never played the game myself I'm no expert, but it seems to me that we keep making a fundamental selection mistake. Firstly we needed an opener so we promoted Root, on the grounds that he was scoring lots of runs further down the order and had some experience of opening. That proved a disaster which could have blighted the career of a less confident individual. Now we are doing the same with Moeen, worse, we are asking him to bowl upwards of 20 overs then go in and open in searing heat. As a result we are getting less runs from him, and probably a less effective bowler too. Would Compton or Hales really be so much worse?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2015 20:50:30 GMT
Of all the many things that could be said about England's performance in this series, the most disappointing to me is that the more the English spinners have bowled the worse they have become. This, I think, is the nub of it. Jimmy Anderson said something similar when asked about the spinners; he said words to the effect that at Test match level you either learn fast or you will soon be gone. Cricket at international level is like an arms race. New players arrive, show their talent and have some success. The opposition then finds their weaknesses and exploits them. The best players counter by correcting those weaknesses. Those who can't don't make it. That's why the fab four/famous five/'England has a bunch of young players who will be playing test cricket for the next decade' line was so ridiculous. Of the famous five, Ballance, Buttler and Moeen Ali all had early success. Their peformances have since declined, two of them have been dropped and a third is on the brink. Whether they are good enough to overcome the technical flaws that have been exposed and can come back as better players remains to be seen. Part of the problem is that players like those named above get plucked out of the county game so early and then play very little cricket (I don't think Buttler has ever played a full county season?). And playing regularly is still the best way of learning and improving. It's why Taylor and Bairstow are now better players than when they first played Test cricket and Ballance, Buttler and Moeen Ali are not. Somone like Rashid is perhaps different.He has played lots of county cricket but appears to have reached the plateau of his ability. I know Shane Warne says England have to be patient with him. But everybody not only says that to succeed at Test level he has to learn to bowl a bit quicker, but the coaches have been telling him that for years; it's why he wasn't picked for England until now. Yet he seems incapable of doing it.
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Post by leedsgull on Nov 5, 2015 8:35:00 GMT
Fortunately Cook, Anderson & Broad are not involved in the one day series coming up. I would send Root home for a complete rest before the trip to South Africa next month. He has a book published today so could do a few book signings as a distraction from cricket.
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Post by leedsgull on Nov 5, 2015 8:39:13 GMT
On the subject of Rashid. I have seen an awful lot of his county career. He has days when he can run through teams and others when he looks total rubbish. Everyone says, that is what you get from leg spinners. Unfortunately Warne was a complete one off and it is unfair to compare with him. Rashid is probably a better bet at 7-8 then Ali as someone who might take some wickets and will probably score the odd 50. Think of him as Ashley Giles not Shane Warne and he does not seem so bad.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 8:59:26 GMT
On the subject of Rashid. I have seen an awful lot of his county career. He has days when he can run through teams and others when he looks total rubbish. Everyone says, that is what you get from leg spinners. Unfortunately Warne was a complete one off and it is unfair to compare with him. Rashid is probably a better bet at 7-8 then Ali as someone who might take some wickets and will probably score the odd 50. Think of him as Ashley Giles not Shane Warne and he does not seem so bad. A point well made, lg. But it's hard to see England ever going for a wrist spinner over a finger spinner except on the sub-continent, which makes it difficult to imagine Rashid in the Ashley Giles role. Cook needs a spinner he can turn to for control as much as wicket-taking. If Ansari is still hors de combat, then it probably has to be Tredwell. My point about Rashid, though, is why is the ball still coming out at an avge 47-48 mph when every single coach, pundit and expert - including Warne - is telling him he needs to bowl it faster at Test match level?
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Post by hhsussex on Nov 5, 2015 9:21:09 GMT
On the subject of Rashid. I have seen an awful lot of his county career. He has days when he can run through teams and others when he looks total rubbish. Everyone says, that is what you get from leg spinners. Unfortunately Warne was a complete one off and it is unfair to compare with him. Rashid is probably a better bet at 7-8 then Ali as someone who might take some wickets and will probably score the odd 50. Think of him as Ashley Giles not Shane Warne and he does not seem so bad. A point well made, lg. But it's hard to see England ever going for a wrist spinner over a finger spinner except on the sub-continent, which makes it difficult to imagine Rashid in the Ashley Giles role. Cook needs a spinner he can turn to for control as much as wicket-taking. If Ansari is still hors de combat, then it probably has to be Tredwell. My point about Rashid, though, is why is the ball still coming out at an avge 47-48 mph when every single coach, pundit and expert - including Warne - is telling him he needs to bowl it faster at Test match level?Probably because at county level he takes 29 at 28 each in 210 overs bowling that way and everyone tells him he is invaluable. Once again, the gulf between the Championship and the Test game is getting wider each year.
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Post by hhsussex on Nov 5, 2015 9:23:18 GMT
On the subject of Rashid. I have seen an awful lot of his county career. He has days when he can run through teams and others when he looks total rubbish. Everyone says, that is what you get from leg spinners. Unfortunately Warne was a complete one off and it is unfair to compare with him. Rashid is probably a better bet at 7-8 then Ali as someone who might take some wickets and will probably score the odd 50. Think of him as Ashley Giles not Shane Warne and he does not seem so bad.Nothing could ever be as bad as Ashley Giles.
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