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Post by gmdf on Feb 19, 2017 8:02:27 GMT
Perhaps, but not all of us (as far as I can see I'm not alone) don't think a franchise based system is the way to organise 20 over cricket. Indeed I think it may well be disastrous - and I am beginning to suspect that those in charge don't actually care if it fails. So I'm not against county T20 games, and would be happy to see that more extensively promoted. Evidence? But I'm glad you have retreated from your dogmatic certainty of yesterday that the new tournanment will be "truly disastrous" and on reflection now concede that is merely an opinion which "may" (and which, by collorary, therefore may not) be the case ... And for the record, the claim that it is a "franchise based system" is wrong. The eight teams will not be franchises. They will be controlled 100 per cent by the ECB and the counties. The word "franchise" has repeatedly, and one suspects deliberately, been used incorrectly by the fundamentalist propagandists when they know it is not true. (and btw, s&f, "fudamedntalist" seems far more appropriate than "traditionalist" as many of the naysayers and doom-mongers appear to have borrowed their imagery of English cricketing Apocalypse straight from the Book of Revelation!) I think it goes without saying that any predictions of the future are, and can only be, personal opinions. And I'm happy to stand by my predictions in this matter... As for terminology - 'franchise' system may not be the most accurate way, though it is widely used and some of us think that it could well be the cuckoo that eats all the other residents in the nest (and that would be 'truly disastrous')! But, if you prefer, I have no problem with calling it the 'city' competition. What they do decide to call it will be interesting, unless it is just the name of the sponsor. And, for what it's worth, I don't see myself as either a 'traditionalist' or a 'fundamentalist' - I've always enjoyed one day cricket and (as I think I've said) that includes the T20. I just refer to myself as a lover of cricket, but if you have to attach a label I'd think 'county cricket supporter' is the more accurate one.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 8:30:36 GMT
Can you provide your evidence for the quite extraordiniary allegation that "those in charge don't actually care if it fails"?
If you read back over the 25 pages of this thread, that kind of wild and unsupported statement is a perfect illustration of why the fundamentalist argument has tended to be ridiculed on here.
Instead of simply saying 'we like our cricket the way it is and don't want it to change' (which is quite fair enough in its unambitious way), opponents of change have dressed up their case with risibly OTT statements about a malicious ECB deliberately trying to destroy the game of cricket as we recognise it and have claimed that us blind fools who can't see the ECB's evil intent ought to be grateful for their brave crusade to "save the game we all love" from the wreckers.
In my view, the current ECB leadership takes its role as the guardian of the game with an incredible seriousness of purpose. It is now ten years since the IPL launched and left the ECB looking small-minded and parochial as Giles Clarke conducted his playground spat with Modi, to the detriment of English cricket. Messrs Graves, Harrison, Strauss and their SMT regret that wasted decade but are absolutely determined to catch up and ensure that English cricket is not left out in the cold as the poor relation. They have my undying respect and thanks for that - and I'm afraid those who have tried to stand in their way do not.
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Post by gmdf on Feb 19, 2017 9:16:26 GMT
Can you provide your evidence for the quite extraordiniary allegation that "those in charge don't actually care if it fails"? If you read back over the 25 pages of this thread, that kind of wild and unsupported statement is a perfect illustration of why the fundamentalist argument has tended to be ridiculed on here. Instead of simply saying 'we like our cricket the way it is and don't want it to change' (which is quite fair enough in its unambitious way), opponents of change have dressed up their case with risibly OTT statements about a malicious ECB deliberately trying to destroy the game of cricket as we recognise it and have claimed that us blind fools who can't see the ECB's evil intent will one day be grateful for their brave campaign to "save the game we all love". In my view, the ECB takes its role as the guardian of the game with an incredible seriousness. It is now ten years since the IPL launched and left English cricket looking small-minded and parochial. Messrs Graves, Harrison, Strauss and their SMT regret that wasted decade but are absolutely determined to catch up and ensure that English cricket is not left out in the cold as the poor relation. They have my undying respect and thanks for that - and I'm afraid those who have tried to stand in their way do not. Well, if they are 'incredibly' serious about how they look after the game, then I don't find them very competent. Maybe it is true that 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions', but behind my comment was remembering some of these actions: - Removing live cricket from free to view TV. As a teacher at the time, and for some years afterwards, I can't think of any decision that did more to weaken the hold cricket had on the interest of young people, and help turn it into a minority and rather elite pastime; - Continual messing around with the format and timing of the cricket season so even keen supporters find it nigh impossible to remember when matches start, or which competition comes next; - Sacrificing a popular competition - the 40 over one largely played on Sunday afternoons - for various 50 over ones 'to help win the world cup'. We're still waiting ; - In some seasons having practically no matches played at the weekends, or even on Bank Holiday Mondays - when most working people can get to them; - Setting up a T20 Competition that becomes very popular, then meddling with it - a short period of games, or two short periods, then a regular, mostly on Friday evenings, slot...but before that can even be assessed announce that it will be totally changed; - Starting 'bidding' for Test matches which has caused several counties significant financial embarrassment (Durham is only the most recent) - was that designed to weaken counties who have got into debt to the ECB to make them more malleable? - Proposing a 'city' competition which will run outside the county structure at a time when it will not have any England players available, but weaken the counties by taking what, 1/3 (?) of their staff thus leaving them to play with non-contracted players, academy players or amateur club players for the central part of 'high' summer? Or maybe they'll close down and all go away in July/August? - Oh, and mentioning academies, we now read of the idea that there should be a reduction in the number of academies...I wonder, down to 8, perhaps - wonder if those will be the same places that have the 'city' teams? I could go on... Given the way the ECB has acted over the last 15 years or so, I think we can fairly ask whether they are 'fit for purpose'. Personally I'd abolish them and start again. Now, I realise not everyone will agree with me, but as with other contentious decisions being taken in this country recently, I think we all have to realise that a free, democratic country means the freedom to comment and criticise. Or it means nothing. If my views aren't welcome, then tell me and I'll go away. But I won't stop arguing against what I consider to be a series of wrong decisions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 9:45:46 GMT
"Given the way the ECB has acted over the last 15 years or so..."
There you have it. I suspect if the current leadership of the ECB had been in place ten years ago whern the IPL launched, it would not have behaved with the pig-headed idiocy shown by Clarke, and we would have reaped the rewards of an English super-league years ago.
But why not live in the present? You have made an outrageous allegation that the ECB "doesn't care" if it fails and offered no evidence, just a list of things you didn't like under a previous regime.
Of course you can argue against what you consider to be "wrong decisions". Feel free to do so until you are blue in the face. So can the Brexiteers and the climate change deniers in saloon bars up and down the country. And the flat-earthers and the creationists,too. After all, "its a free, democratic country".
But the argument is lost. The decsion has been taken. And forgive some of us if we can't go along with your righteous belief that you are right and that the ECB, 16 out of 18 counties, 92 per cent of the players and the broadcasters have all got it wrong.
No offence, but I'll put my trust in the professionals who administer, play and broadcast the game rather than in Internet naysayers, if that's OK - particularlly as not one of the fundamentalists has come up with an alternative source of funding for the £23.4 million per annum which the super-league will pay in subsidies to the 18 counties and which will keep county cricket alive.
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Post by gmdf on Feb 19, 2017 9:55:56 GMT
"Given the way the ECB has acted over the last 15 years or so..."There you have it. I suspect if the current leadership of the ECB had been in place ten years ago whern the IPL launched, it would not have behaved with the pig-headed idiocy shown by Clarke, and we would have reaped the rewards of an English super-league years ago. But why not live in the present? You have made an outrageous allegation that the ECB "doesn't care" if it fails and offered no evidence, just a list of things you didn't like under a previous regime. Of course you can argue against what you consider to be "wrong decisions". Feel free to do so until you are blue in the face. So can the Brexiteers and the climate change deniers in saloon bars up and down the country. And the flat-earthers and the creationists,too. After all, "its a free, democratic country". But the argument is lost. The decsion has been taken. And forgive some of us if we can't go along with your righteous belief that you are right and that the ECB, 16 out of 18 counties, 92 per cent of the players and the broadcasters have all got it wrong. No offence, but I'll put my trust in the professionals who administer, play and broadcast the game rather than in Internet naysayers, if that's OK! Some of the things I listed have been carried out under the 'current' regime, and other decisions by their predecessors haven't been reversed or improved. You refer to my opinion as 'outrageous allegations' and, Trump like, ignore the evidence I provided because it doesn't fit in with what you believe. Well, sorry to shake your tree but I don't accept the argument is lost or that what has been decided is 'set in stone'. And I'll continue to say so, thanks, even though you try to tar my view with the idea that it is like being a flat earther or climate change denier. The Donald would be proud of that piece of "argument".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 10:02:08 GMT
I don't accept the argument is lost or that what has been decided is 'set in stone'. Good luck with that one, my ostrich friend. And if you have any ideas for an alternative source for the £117 million which the ECB has guaranteed to the 18 counties between 2020-2025 from the revenues generated by the super-league, please send your ideas on a postcard to Colin Graves. He's waiting to hear from you!
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Post by tigertiger on Feb 19, 2017 14:01:57 GMT
I don't accept the argument is lost or that what has been decided is 'set in stone'. Good luck with that one, my ostrich friend. And if you have any ideas for an alternative source for the £117 million which the ECB has guaranteed to the 18 counties between 2020-2025 from the revenues generated by the super-league, please send your ideas on a postcard to Colin Graves. He's waiting to hear from you! As far as I can tell, the closest to anything being set in stone, is that there will be some new 2020 tournament in 2020 with 8 teams and there will be more stars per game than the current 2020. However, as a plan, success has to be measured on more than what the broadcasters/advertisers are paying.... and that is where I have yet to see anything tangible.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Feb 19, 2017 17:11:07 GMT
Bm, A nd if you have any ideas for an alternative source for the £117 million which the ECB has guaranteed to the 18 counties...Don't forget the match hosting fees that will be given out on top.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 18:50:22 GMT
Bm, A nd if you have any ideas for an alternative source for the £117 million which the ECB has guaranteed to the 18 counties...Don't forget the match hosting fees that will be given out on top. And the apportionment of salaries which will be paid to the counties for the players who are involved. Over the first five years of the financial guarantee, the total figure payable tio the counties with those two elements added in will be what - close to £150 million? That's why anybody who opposes the new tournament without explaining down the back of which sofa they expect to find a similar sum is behaving quite irresponsibly. The decision has been taken. There will be an eight team T20 super-league which will have nothing to do with the Victorian county structure, despite the noisy opposition of a few conspiracy theorists who who seem to believe that the ECB is an evil alien body deiberately trying to destroy county cricket. Such fundamentalists are a tiny cell , as was exposed when they started their 'save our counties' petition last summer. Despite operating their own 'project fear' to gain signatures, more than six months later they've still only managed a few hundred names.
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Post by gmdf on Feb 19, 2017 19:09:07 GMT
Bm, A nd if you have any ideas for an alternative source for the £117 million which the ECB has guaranteed to the 18 counties...Don't forget the match hosting fees that will be given out on top. And the apportionment of salaries which will be paid to the counties for the players who are involved. Over the first five years of the financial guarantee, the total figure payable tio the counties with those two elements added in will be what - close to £150 million? That's why anybody who opposes the new tournament without explaining down the back of which sofa they expect to find a similar sum is behaving quite irresponsibly. The decision has been taken. There will be an eight team T20 super-league which will have nothing to do with the Victorian county structure, despite the noisy opposition of a few conspiracy theorists who who seem to believe that the ECB is an evil alien body deiberately trying to destroy county cricket. Such fundamentalists are a tiny cell , as was exposed when they started their 'save our counties' petition last summer. Despite operating their own 'project fear' to gain signatures, more than six months later they've still only managed a few hundred names. You are welcome to your point of view. It sounds very much like the sort of 'plan' no doubt the conmen - sorry, 'consultants' - the ECB employ to give them the answers they want produce; probably the same ones who recommended cutting cricket off from live TV coverage, something that has done more to remove cricket from its previously held central position. The figures you throw about sound wonderful, but I've always believed 'if something sounds too good to be true, then it is too good to be true'. For the reasons I laid out in a previous post I regard the ECB as not fit for purpose - 'cock up or conspiracy'? I tend to the former, based on their record over the last decade or so. When this all comes crashing down, and quite possibly both Kent and Sussex are amongst the counties relegated to something akin to minor county status don't expect me not to be saying 'I told you so', though no doubt you'll be spouting more ECB warranted platitudes to prove that 'the game has never been stronger'.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 19:52:55 GMT
The figures you throw about sound wonderful, but I've always believed 'if something sounds too good to be true, then it is too good to be true'. ffs - they're not my figures. The ECB had guarantered every county £1.3 million per annum each year for the first five years. That's a fact and is ''cast in stone''. When you said you were going to try to "ameliorate" the plan, I took that to mean you thought the counties should demand more money. I didn't realise you weren't even aware of the financial guarantees the counties have been given. All you do is peddle bizarre conspiracy theories in your own version of project fear. The ECB is not fit for purpose, Kent and Sussex will be relegated to something akin to minor county status ... what on earth are you on? As for "don't expect me not to be saying 'I told you so', though no doubt you'll be spouting more ECB warranted platitudes to prove that 'the game has never been stronger'" - you've already likened me to Donald Trump and now you're putting words in my mouth in some fictitious circumstance that is never going to happen outside of your own warped imagination? Happy to debate this with anybody with a sensible case and reasoned arguments - and, above all, a responsible alternative financial plan to save "the game we all love". But as you fail on all three counts, it looks like we won't be debating it with you... ps: your version of how the BBC lost Test cricket is also utter fiction. They had already lost Forumla One to ITV and when it came to cricket couldn't even match the money C4 put up....and it was Tony Blair's Labour Governnment who removed Test cricket from the list of 'crown jewels' sporting events that had to have terrestial TV coverage.
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Post by tigertiger on Feb 19, 2017 19:56:08 GMT
Will be interested in seeing the risk log. Also a key factor is whether the finances assume India are in or out. The Yusuf Pathan story this week when he was "eventually" not allowed to play in the Hong Kong T20 tournament seems to suggest that the BCCI have not changed their stance.
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Post by tigertiger on Feb 19, 2017 20:20:15 GMT
The figures you throw about sound wonderful, but I've always believed 'if something sounds too good to be true, then it is too good to be true'. ffs - they're not my figures. The ECB had guarantered every county £1.3 million per annum each year for the first five years. That's a fact and is ''cast in stone''. When you said you were going to try to "ameliorate" the plan, I took that to mean you thought the counties should demand more money. I didn't realise you weren't even aware of the financial guarantees the counties have been given. All you do is peddle bizarre conspiracy theories in your own version of project fear. The ECB is not fit for purpose, Kent and Sussex will be relegated to something akin to minor county status ... what on earth are you on? As for "don't expect me not to be saying 'I told you so', though no doubt you'll be spouting more ECB warranted platitudes to prove that 'the game has never been stronger'" - you've already likened me to Donald Trump and now you're putting words in my mouth in some fictitious circumstance that is never going to happen outside of your own warped imagination? Happy to debate this with anybody with a sensible case and reasoned arguments - and, above all, a responsible alternative financial plan to save "the game we all love". But as you fail on all three counts, it looks like we won't be debating it with you... ps: your version of how the BBC lost Test cricket is also utter fiction. They had already lost Forumla One to ITV and when it came to cricket couldn't even match the money C4 put up.... Presumably the guarantee will come out of reserves, if they get less than expected from the rights. I don't think that the future of Kent/Sussex can be classed as a conspiracy theory ... just a prediction of the potential consequences of the league...can understand the case, personally would be happier once the hosting plans are clearer. If Kent or Sussex get no superleague games then I would worry. As the concept of saving the game we all love keeps coming up ... if we look to 2025, what would be considered a success? [Hope it is lots of high quality 50 over matches in the sun ...]
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Post by flashblade on Feb 19, 2017 20:31:05 GMT
None of us has any say in what's going to happen (have we?!). All the arguments available at this stage seem to have been aired on this board (more than once), and it's clear that confirmation bias is alive and well on this thread.
BM (and others) believe that the new comp will be the salvation of English cricket; others are sceptical and predict failure.
Unless someone has a crystal ball, can I suggest that we all settle down and wait to see what develops. Personally, I suspect that the eventual outcome will be somewhere in between the two opposing views . . .
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Post by howardh on Feb 19, 2017 21:20:10 GMT
Well that was good fun reading through such verbage. Yuk!
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