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Post by sussexforever on Jul 14, 2023 7:52:24 GMT
What's your winning scenario then? The last couple of years at Hove have shown how difficult it is for a lot of sides to bowl teams out. A chase where they give wickets away is the only way.
Given how easy it was for FHP and Carson in the morning session they made the right call.
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Post by therealab1 on Jul 14, 2023 8:44:03 GMT
What's your winning scenario then? The last couple of years at Hove have shown how difficult it is for a lot of sides to bowl teams out. A chase where they give wickets away is the only way. Given how easy it was for FHP and Carson in the morning session they made the right call. I 100% agree with you it would have been difficult to force the result because of the way modern pitches are, if we go half an hour before lunch thats the maximum in my opinion in terms of time we could have had in terms of winning, once we went past that we may as well batted on. For me the disappointment is when you hear things like we will always take the positive option and risk losing to enforce a win and then you dont do it you look a bit silly.
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Post by squarepoint on Jul 14, 2023 9:37:56 GMT
I don’t understand why you think we couldn’t have won after that declaration when we only came 2 wickets short. We only had them 8 down becasue when they had a chance to win they took the gamble. If we would have had them 70/4 at tea they would have shut up shop for 2 hours on a very flat pitch. I still don’t get it. Had we declared earlier, Derbys could have taken it slower, making fewer risky shots. We forced them to play a high risk game which almost worked. Like you, I thought they’d got it wrong at the time but events proved otherwise.
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Post by therealab1 on Jul 14, 2023 9:55:45 GMT
We only had them 8 down becasue when they had a chance to win they took the gamble. If we would have had them 70/4 at tea they would have shut up shop for 2 hours on a very flat pitch. I still don’t get it. Had we declared earlier, Derbys could have taken it slower, making fewer risky shots. We forced them to play a high risk game which almost worked. Like you, I thought they’d got it wrong at the time but events proved otherwise. Haha might be easier to explain in person this one but let me try and break it down. First of all when making this decision you dont have the benefit of hindsight so you can never know. However..... This would be the discussion I'd be having. Do we want to win the game but risk losing? Yes! lets give them 70 overs to chase 300 and give us the best chance if we lose we havent been good enough to force the result and we lose the draw points. No! Lets bat to lunch and declare then giving us 2 full sessions to bowl them out. Do we want to Guarantee the draw? Yes! (this is what i think happened) they wont chase 380 in say 55 overs its too many so we are save but we have a squeak of winning with early wickets. This is an easier mindset for Derbys batters, we can have a go first 10 overs then steady any ship if needed and have a blast at the end. So to summarise, if we wanted to win we had to go earlier if we wanted to draw we should have just batted on until all out. To add i equally think Derbys decision to shut up 8 down made no sense given their position in the league table, they might have got over the line.
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Post by squarepoint on Jul 14, 2023 13:11:47 GMT
I think the players’ experience of T20 has changed the fourth innings equation. They’re now far more likely to have a go at chasing totals that previously seemed out of reach. So this affects the declaration equation. It’s now possible to bat on for longer, knowing the opposition will probably take risks, giving you a decent chance of bowling them out.
Anyhow, it was another exciting finish that unfortunately ended in a draw again. Americans would scratch their heads wondering why we don’t just play on a bit longer to decide a winner!
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Post by therealab1 on Jul 14, 2023 13:15:17 GMT
I think the players’ experience of T20 has changed the fourth innings equation. They’re now far more likely to have a go at chasing totals that previously seemed out of reach. So this affects the declaration equation. It’s now possible to bat on for longer, knowing the opposition will probably take risks, giving you a decent chance of bowling them out. Anyhow, it was another exciting finish that unfortunately ended in a draw again. Americans would scratch their heads wondering why we don’t just play on a bit longer to decide a winner! Well they do have a point, I'd like to see a fromula worked out for winning and losing draws. i.e. if your 100-9 chasing 500 should the team clinging on be awarded the same points as bowling team?
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sixandout
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Post by sixandout on Jul 14, 2023 14:07:54 GMT
I think the players’ experience of T20 has changed the fourth innings equation. They’re now far more likely to have a go at chasing totals that previously seemed out of reach. So this affects the declaration equation. It’s now possible to bat on for longer, knowing the opposition will probably take risks, giving you a decent chance of bowling them out. Anyhow, it was another exciting finish that unfortunately ended in a draw again. Americans would scratch their heads wondering why we don’t just play on a bit longer to decide a winner! Well they do have a point, I'd like to see a fromula worked out for winning and losing draws. i.e. if your 100-9 chasing 500 should the team clinging on be awarded the same points as bowling team? I guess you're advocating a sort of Duckworth-Lewis for 4-day games. I think it would be contentious whatever was decided, but I like the idea in principle. However, the Derbyshire game would have been an all-square Duckworth-Lewis or whatever, which was a fair result. I do think batting and bowling points need to be revisited. 300 on some pitches is a big score; on others it is a poor score. Similarly, taking 9 wickets in 110 overs may or may not be due to good bowling. With regard to the declaration and Derbyshire run chase, I do wonder whether Derbyshire put us into bat because they fancied a run chase on that track. The old way was to bat first unless there was a good reason not to because you had more chance of controlling the game. I'm not sure that's true at Hove where wickets are still easy to bat on on the fourth day.
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Post by mrsdoyle on Jul 14, 2023 17:28:36 GMT
I think the players’ experience of T20 has changed the fourth innings equation. They’re now far more likely to have a go at chasing totals that previously seemed out of reach. So this affects the declaration equation. It’s now possible to bat on for longer, knowing the opposition will probably take risks, giving you a decent chance of bowling them out. Anyhow, it was another exciting finish that unfortunately ended in a draw again. Americans would scratch their heads wondering why we don’t just play on a bit longer to decide a winner! That’s the beauty of cricket, they frown at a game that breaks up for lunch and tea, goes on for 4 days then ends in a draw, but I love it, it was a very exciting draw.
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Post by mrsdoyle on Jul 14, 2023 17:30:15 GMT
I still don’t get it. Had we declared earlier, Derbys could have taken it slower, making fewer risky shots. We forced them to play a high risk game which almost worked. Like you, I thought they’d got it wrong at the time but events proved otherwise. Haha might be easier to explain in person this one but let me try and break it down. First of all when making this decision you dont have the benefit of hindsight so you can never know. However..... This would be the discussion I'd be having. Do we want to win the game but risk losing? Yes! lets give them 70 overs to chase 300 and give us the best chance if we lose we havent been good enough to force the result and we lose the draw points. No! Lets bat to lunch and declare then giving us 2 full sessions to bowl them out. Do we want to Guarantee the draw? Yes! (this is what i think happened) they wont chase 380 in say 55 overs its too many so we are save but we have a squeak of winning with early wickets. This is an easier mindset for Derbys batters, we can have a go first 10 overs then steady any ship if needed and have a blast at the end. So to summarise, if we wanted to win we had to go earlier if we wanted to draw we should have just batted on until all out. To add i equally think Derbys decision to shut up 8 down made no sense given their position in the league table, they might have got over the line. It’s not hindsight though is it, not from Sussex, they called it about right, I thought they had declared a bit late but any earlier and they would have lost, couple of extra overs and 20 less runs and we were toast.
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Post by surreysteve on Jul 14, 2023 18:55:59 GMT
CP should get Ashwin to come over as 2nd overseas in Sept. He would get loads of wickets has played county cricket before. You lot would get promoted. Sorted.
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Post by therealab1 on Jul 14, 2023 22:35:42 GMT
Well they do have a point, I'd like to see a fromula worked out for winning and losing draws. i.e. if your 100-9 chasing 500 should the team clinging on be awarded the same points as bowling team? I guess you're advocating a sort of Duckworth-Lewis for 4-day games. I think it would be contentious whatever was decided, but I like the idea in principle. However, the Derbyshire game would have been an all-square Duckworth-Lewis or whatever, which was a fair result. I do think batting and bowling points need to be revisited. 300 on some pitches is a big score; on others it is a poor score. Similarly, taking 9 wickets in 110 overs may or may not be due to good bowling. With regard to the declaration and Derbyshire run chase, I do wonder whether Derbyshire put us into bat because they fancied a run chase on that track. The old way was to bat first unless there was a good reason not to because you had more chance of controlling the game. I'm not sure that's true at Hove where wickets are still easy to bat on on the fourth day. DL to a point sure, and yes your bang on this game was a genuine draw. The game needs to move on i think to a point where draws are rewarded accordingly,
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Post by therealab1 on Jul 14, 2023 22:37:05 GMT
Haha might be easier to explain in person this one but let me try and break it down. First of all when making this decision you dont have the benefit of hindsight so you can never know. However..... This would be the discussion I'd be having. Do we want to win the game but risk losing? Yes! lets give them 70 overs to chase 300 and give us the best chance if we lose we havent been good enough to force the result and we lose the draw points. No! Lets bat to lunch and declare then giving us 2 full sessions to bowl them out. Do we want to Guarantee the draw? Yes! (this is what i think happened) they wont chase 380 in say 55 overs its too many so we are save but we have a squeak of winning with early wickets. This is an easier mindset for Derbys batters, we can have a go first 10 overs then steady any ship if needed and have a blast at the end. So to summarise, if we wanted to win we had to go earlier if we wanted to draw we should have just batted on until all out. To add i equally think Derbys decision to shut up 8 down made no sense given their position in the league table, they might have got over the line. It’s not hindsight though is it, not from Sussex, they called it about right, I thought they had declared a bit late but any earlier and they would have lost, couple of extra overs and 20 less runs and we were toast. It is hindsight your saying that though. You couldnt have known that before we declared.
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sixandout
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Post by sixandout on Jul 15, 2023 5:36:47 GMT
It’s not hindsight though is it, not from Sussex, they called it about right, I thought they had declared a bit late but any earlier and they would have lost, couple of extra overs and 20 less runs and we were toast. It is hindsight your saying that though. You couldnt have known that before we declared. I think you’re saying that you would have liked us to lose this game because on balance we would win more than we would lose. However, I can’t agree with that. If we had pouched a difficult chance that Du Plooy offered when he was around 50, I think Derbyshire would have batted out a dull draw. We’ll never know if I’m right, of course. By setting a big target, it meant we could set attacking fields until Derbyshire started knocking us all over the place. I think we have to accept the management/captain/whoever got it right. One more wicket at the end and we had a rabbit trying to save the game. We came closer to victory than I expected.
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Post by sponge on Jul 15, 2023 6:40:08 GMT
Win, draw, lose it is rightly a great talking point amongst us. Our last 3 games have been fantastic adverts for the 4 ball game. It's a good time to support Sussex. I hope that our next game v Yorks is close; and we can get over the line. Farbrace rightly defended Carson in his interview. Carson has to turn in a big performance v Yorks. I would also like to see more of McAndrew and Shipley bowling as a pair.
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