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Post by sussexforever on Jun 14, 2015 23:17:08 GMT
Is it really the time to be discussing this?
Wishing them both a speedy recovery. Can't argue with the abandonment as it must have been extremely distressing for all involved. Quick reactions from both sets of physios and the paramedics is to be commended!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 7:04:24 GMT
Is it really the time to be discussing this? Absolutely the optimum time to be discussing it. I think flashblade makes a very good point about cricket not allowing substitutes because the one material difference between this incident and what happens on football fields every weekend is the replacement of the injured players. If Surrey had been allowed two substitute batsmen, there is no doubt in my mind that the game would have continued - just as it does every time two players clash heads going for a header in football, get knocked unconscious and are then stretchered off with blood pouring from their wounds and new players replace them. What made it impossible to restart the game yesterday is that it would have reduced the game to 11 v 9 and Sussex would only have needed to take eight wickets to win. Somehow 11 v 10 seems within the acceptable calibration of rotten luck, but 11 v 9 is unfair and makes a mockery of the contest. Which is why I suspect if only one player had been taken to hospital, the game would have continued , as it did following the similar Smith/Nash incident a few years ago. It has got nothing to do with "compassion", which is properly directed towards the two injured players. We're talking about what should happen subsequent to their departure from the field of play. Neither injury threatens to be career-ending, as Kieswetter's was. Last season Kieswetter was taken to hospital leaving blood all over the pitch. The game continued but he was never to play again. Are we saying the other players and the umpires showed a lack of "compassion" on that occasion?
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Post by hhsussex on Jun 15, 2015 8:15:20 GMT
Is it really the time to be discussing this? Absolutely the optimum time to be discussing it. I think flashblade makes a very good point about cricket not allowing substitutes because the one material difference between this incident and what happens on football fields every weekend is the replacement of the injured players. If Surrey had been allowed two substitute batsmen, there is no doubt in my mind that the game would have continued - just as it does every time two players clash heads going for a header in football, get knocked unconscious and are then stretchered off with blood pouring from their wounds and new players replace them. What made it impossible to restart the game yesterday is that it would have reduced the game to 11 v 9 and Sussex would only have needed to take eight wickets to win. Somehow 11 v 10 seems within the acceptable calibration of rotten luck, but 11 v 9 is unfair and makes a mockery of the contest. Which is why I suspect if only one player had been taken to hospital, the game would have continued , as it did following the similar Smith/Nash incident a few years ago. It has got nothing to do with "compassion", which is properly directed towards the two injured players. We're talking about what should happen subsequent to their departure from the field of play. Neither injury threatens to be career-ending, as Kieswetter's was. Last season Kieswetter was taken to hospital leaving blood all over the pitch. The game continued but he was never to play again. Are we saying the other players and the umpires showed a lack of "compassion" on that occasion? I'll try to make myself a bit clearer than I did last night in responding, because I agree that there should be debate. For many years there has been the assumption, propagated by cricket journalists but unquestioningly accepted as received wisdom, that cricket is not a “contact sport” in the way that soccer or rugby and other ball games are. This conveniently ignored the evidence of Cowdrey’s broken arm in 63, or Paul Terry’s in 84, the awful moments when Ewen Chatfield lay on the ground awaiting revival having swallowed his tongue, the brain injury that forced Nari Contractor’s retirement in 62, and the more recent accidents to Kieswetter and Boucher. It also ignores the experience of almost everyone who has played the game at some level and seen or been involved in accidents mostly minor but sometimes much more serious. The attitude that this is ultimately a gentle, pastoral game, played with conviction and strength but largely without risk – although the need for helmets has long been accepted there are still traditionalists who bemoan it – also engenders a feeling that actions on the field somehow transcend normal physical laws. We all laughed at Brian Close fielding at silly point and answering the question “What will you do if you get hit?” with “It will get caught at cover off the rebound”. We simply refuse to take seriously the notion that risk is part of this game as it is part of anything that involves competitive interaction with others. That attitude however changed completely with the death of Philip Hughes. The realisation that someone could, and did, die whilst playing a game had a profound effect. The massive outpouring of sympathy also coincided with a heightened concern about safety in all sports. Everything that has been said and written about Arundel suggests a complete crowd revulsion from the spectacle that took precedence over any other consideration. There seems to have been great sympathy for the medical arrangements and an understanding that of course the game should not go on. The feeling that the contest was over at that point seems to have been universal. I think the points that have been raised in this discussion certainly should be debated: the possibility of substitution in some circumstances, and the idea of refunds when some force majeure incident happens. I’m not sure that I would agree with the first one without being very clear about what and when would substitution be triggered, and in any case the readiness of the onlookers to accept it would have to be measured, somehow. As to refunds, there doesn’t seem to have been any strong feeling expressed that they should be made, which isn’t to deny the concept.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 8:36:13 GMT
Some good points there, hh, although I still don't accept there is any parallel with Philip Hughes, for the reasons stated. If Hughes really is the 'game changer', then the logical conclusion is to ban short-pitched bowling and/or play with a softer ball. Cannot for the life of me see it has any relevance to two fielders colliding in the outfield, which is an utterly different scenario.
On refunds, when Spurs v Bolton was abandoned following Muamba's heart attack, all tickets were valid for the rearranged game (even though spectators had already had decent value in seeing all but 12 mins of the scheduled game first time around). Those who couldn't make the second date were offered a full refund.
The Sussex v Surrey game will not be replayed, so there is a difference there. But as a matter of respect both to paying public and injured opponents, Sussex should offer a ticket for another match or a refund for those who cannot make another fixture.
If the reported 8,000 attendance yesterday is correct there were 3,000 non-regulars present. Even if 1,000 were travelling Surrey supporters, that's 2,000 potential Sussex supporters that the club needs to persuade to come again.
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Post by hhsussex on Jun 15, 2015 8:51:25 GMT
Some good points there, hh, although I still don't accept there is any parallel with Philip Hughes, for the reasons stated. If Hughes really is the 'game changer', then the logical conclusion is to ban short-pitched bowling and/or play with a softer ball. Cannot for the life of me see it has any relevance to two fielders colliding in the outfield, which is an utterly different scenario.On refunds, when Spurs v Bolton was abandoned following Muamba's heart attack, all tickets were valid for the rearranged game (even though spectators had already had decent value in seeing asll but 12 mins of the scheduled game first time around). Those who couldn't make the second date were offered a full refund. The Sussex v Surrey game will not be replayed, so there is a difference there. But as a matter of respect both the the paying public and the injured players, Sussex should offer a ticket for another match or a refund for those who cannot make another fixture. If the reported 8,000 attendance yesterday is correct there were 3,000 non-regulars present. Even if 1,000 were travelling Surrey supporters, that's 2,000 potential Sussex supporters that the club needs to persuade to come again. It isn't a direct parallel, of course, but the point I am trying to make is not about the logic of post hoc ergo propter hoc, but about how a single action can act as a catalyst for a change in public perception. What appears to be a serious accident on a cricket field - whether by the agency of the ball or this bizarre fielding collision - is no longer a matter for a flurry of reminiscence about what happened in Dartford in '55, but now raises in the minds of many the thought of another person dying in front of an audience. It isn't an argument for a change of the rules of the game, but it is a reflection of a heightened approach to the way an audience's expectations can change from entertainment to revulsion, maybe a Diana moment, and attitudes may soften again, but it is too recent to be ignored. Playing devil's advocate, how much stronger would the PR effect be for Sussex to offer refunds, than for what seems to be regarded as a sensible, organised and humane approach to the on-field treatment and relatively swift decision to abandon the game?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 9:14:43 GMT
We shall just have to agree to disagree on this one,hh, because I find the talk of a ''Diana moment'' and "the thought of another person dying in front of an audience'' ridiculously melodramatic. Two chaps running in to each other - even at full pelt - is never going to result in them killing each other. It doesn't on a rugby or football field so why should it on a cricket field?
I have had my say and I have never said the decision to abandon was wrong. But the argument to abandon should be either : (i) the 20 remaining fit players were too distressed to continue the game or (ii) a freak accident that reduces the contest to 11 v 9 and denies one team two of its key batsmen renders the game so unfair that it is deemed null and void. But I don't believe a game should be abandoned on some 'Diana moment' emotional spasm in which the spectre of death is held to haunt our cricket grounds when we're actually talking about a broken jaw, a few stitches and perhaps some concussion (which is bad enough, but has to be kept in perspective and is actually the worst that is going to happen when two people have the misfortune to run into each other).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 9:23:26 GMT
A collision between two fielders at cricket is different from the collisions experienced in other sports. Neither party is prepared for a collision so the consequences are potentially more severe. I hope you are right that no-one ever dies from such an incident.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 10:22:39 GMT
A collision between two fielders at cricket is different from the collisions experienced in other sports. Neither party is prepared for a collision so the consequences are potentially more severe. I hope you are right that no-one ever dies from such an incident. I hope so, too, stonewall. Two players running into each other is rare enough for it to be decribed as a "freakish accident" - not least because 999 times out of a thousand, such collisions are prevented by the simple shout of "Mine!" Of course, freakish events can and do occur. But for death to result from such a one in a thousand collision would require an even more freakish set of medical circumstances and would be against odds that are not even astronomical but in the realms of astrology...
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Post by burgesshill on Jun 15, 2015 13:58:08 GMT
We shall just have to agree to disagree on this one,hh, because I find the talk of a ''Diana moment'' and "the thought of another person dying in front of an audience'' ridiculously melodramatic. Two chaps running in to each other - even at full pelt - is never going to result in them killing each other. It doesn't on a rugby or football field so why should it on a cricket field? I have had my say and I have never said the decision to abandon was wrong. But the argument to abandon should be either : (i) the 20 remaining fit players were too distressed to continue the game or (ii) a freak accident that reduces the contest to 11 v 9 and denies one team two of its key batsmen renders the game so unfair that it is deemed null and void. But I don't believe a game should be abandoned on some 'Diana moment' emotional spasm in which the spectre of death is held to haunt our cricket grounds when we're actually talking about a broken jaw, a few stitches and perhaps some concussion (which is bad enough, but has to be kept in perspective and is actually the worst that is going to happen when two people have the misfortune to run into each other). I think you are missing a key point. Burns was unconscious for 5 minutes after the incident, which might have meant bleeding in the brain. Like a boxer who gets up after a blow, seems alright, and then collapses and dies 4 hours later. So- Even when he regained conciousceness you couldn't happily say 'Good, he's alright. let's continue' Despite your opinion it really WAS potentially a life threatening situation. You expect people to carry on, worrying someone might die?
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Post by flashblade on Jun 15, 2015 14:03:30 GMT
We shall just have to agree to disagree on this one,hh, because I find the talk of a ''Diana moment'' and "the thought of another person dying in front of an audience'' ridiculously melodramatic. Two chaps running in to each other - even at full pelt - is never going to result in them killing each other. It doesn't on a rugby or football field so why should it on a cricket field? I have had my say and I have never said the decision to abandon was wrong. But the argument to abandon should be either : (i) the 20 remaining fit players were too distressed to continue the game or (ii) a freak accident that reduces the contest to 11 v 9 and denies one team two of its key batsmen renders the game so unfair that it is deemed null and void. But I don't believe a game should be abandoned on some 'Diana moment' emotional spasm in which the spectre of death is held to haunt our cricket grounds when we're actually talking about a broken jaw, a few stitches and perhaps some concussion (which is bad enough, but has to be kept in perspective and is actually the worst that is going to happen when two people have the misfortune to run into each other). I think you are missing a key point. Burns was unconscious for 5 minutes after the incident, which might have meant bleeding in the brain. Like a boxer who gets up after a blow, seems alright, and then collapses and dies 4 hours later. So- Even when he regained conciousceness you couldn't happily say 'Good, he's alright. let's continue' Despite your opinion it really WAS potentially a life threatening situation. You expect people to carry on, worrying someone might die? I totally agree - it's only a f****** cricket match, when all's said and done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 15:20:58 GMT
We shall just have to agree to disagree on this one,hh, because I find the talk of a ''Diana moment'' and "the thought of another person dying in front of an audience'' ridiculously melodramatic. Two chaps running in to each other - even at full pelt - is never going to result in them killing each other. It doesn't on a rugby or football field so why should it on a cricket field? I have had my say and I have never said the decision to abandon was wrong. But the argument to abandon should be either : (i) the 20 remaining fit players were too distressed to continue the game or (ii) a freak accident that reduces the contest to 11 v 9 and denies one team two of its key batsmen renders the game so unfair that it is deemed null and void. But I don't believe a game should be abandoned on some 'Diana moment' emotional spasm in which the spectre of death is held to haunt our cricket grounds when we're actually talking about a broken jaw, a few stitches and perhaps some concussion (which is bad enough, but has to be kept in perspective and is actually the worst that is going to happen when two people have the misfortune to run into each other). I think you are missing a key point. Burns was unconscious for 5 minutes after the incident, which might have meant bleeding in the brain. Like a boxer who gets up after a blow, seems alright, and then collapses and dies 4 hours later. So- Even when he regained conciousceness you couldn't happily say 'Good, he's alright. let's continue' Despite your opinion it really WAS potentially a life threatening situation. You expect people to carry on, worrying someone might die? If you have any first aid training, you will know there was no prospect that two people running into each other would cause instantly fatal brain trauma - but it is important to get them to hospital asap for a CT scan. Which is what happened. Nasty incident, clearly, but many worse on the football field and to claim otherwise is, in my view, unecessarily alarmist.
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Post by hhsussex on Jun 15, 2015 15:36:07 GMT
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Post by burgesshill on Jun 15, 2015 15:50:55 GMT
A top athelete can run a mile in under 4 minutes.
They were both said to be going at full pelt.
So 1 miles in 4 minutes would be 15 mile an hour. If we say it probably wasn't that fast, then maybe 10mph each would equal a clash of heads at 20 mph.
Plenty of scope to be very very worried.
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Post by flashblade on Jun 15, 2015 15:52:00 GMT
Excellent statement from the club.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 16:19:03 GMT
Good for Sussex in not wishing to profit excessively from a match curtailed due to a freak accident. Was always confident that the club would do the right thing, although it should have been like for like - ie another T20 ticket, not CC or the Cup nobody wants.
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