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Post by Wicked Cricket on May 3, 2015 21:31:17 GMT
Oh dear, another unmitigated English disaster. Is Graves presently sharpening his scythe minus the rippling Poldark muscles? Farewell Whittaker and Moores come Wednesday? As Lawrence Booth tweets: "This is the first time since May 2011 that West Indies have won a Test against a team other than NZ, Zim or Bang." And Piers Morgan gloats: "Tremendous win by West Indies. Awful performance by England. Big changes now essential." Whilst George Dobell retweets: "West Indies 2nd win in last 29 Tests v England since Birmingham 2000 (Lost 18, Drawn 9)."
And with Colin Graves words in March: "If we don't win, I can tell you now there will be some enquiries" echoing around English cricket, Freddie Wilde points out: "No Gayle, no Simmons, no Bravo, no Russell, no Narine...no problem. What a win for West Indies, their fans should be proud."
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Post by coverpoint on May 3, 2015 21:41:24 GMT
Heads need to roll after this embarrassing defeat. A bloody disgraceful performance from England. We cannot continue with the same mickey mouse setup. What was the point of taking Lyth and Rashid if you weren't going to play them?
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Post by mrsdoyle on May 3, 2015 21:47:22 GMT
It's all Jordan. Graham Swann describes him as a wonderful catcher with a poor technique, but we'd be lost without him. Not interested in Swann's opinion
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 21:49:00 GMT
Oh dear, another unmitigated English disaster. Is Graves presently sharpening his scythe minus the rippling Poldark muscles? Farewell Whittaker and Moores come Wednesday? As Lawrence Booth tweets: "This is the first time since May 2011 that West Indies have won a Test against a team other than NZ, Zim or Bang." And Piers Morgan gloats: "Tremendous win by West Indies. Awful performance by England. Big changes now essential." And George Dobell retweets: "West Indies 2nd win in last 29 Tests v England since Birmingham 2000 (Lost 18, Drawn 9)." Yep, the blood-letting will now begin. And rightly so. Starting with Whittaker and Moores. I'm afraid Peter Moores is an utter disaster. His irresponsibility over the Trott as opener debacle was near criminal But for me the clincher was a TV shot this evening as the Windies coasted to victory of Moores on the England balcony deep in consultation with his two spinners, Tredwell and Rashid. Unfortunately he had decided they would both spend the match wearning yellow bibs and carrying the drnks. Presumably Moores was ruefully telling them, " I cocked up. I wish I had you two out there." Moeen Ali's bowling was ruddy awful in both innings. He really has to go. England must also be losing patience with Bell; two centuries in his last 16 Tests is not good enough. As Trott left the field for the last time in an England shirt, he looked haunted and was in tears. A man at the end of his tether - again. I cannot imagine we will see him for Warwicks this season and would expect him now to retire. I wonder how much England's appalling second innings batting was because the entire team was affected by the Trott psycho-drama and the trauma of seeing one of their team-mates disintegrate before their eyes.
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Post by mrsdoyle on May 3, 2015 21:49:27 GMT
So, maybe the pitch wasn't as bad as we made it appear? Last week the Aussies were quaking in their boots about facing this new revitalised England, now they can sleep easy again. Poor batting, poor bowling, poor selection, and you know what, I don't really care anymore.
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Post by mrsdoyle on May 3, 2015 21:54:27 GMT
You are right about Trott Borderman, really upset me to see him so distraught.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 22:02:31 GMT
You are right about Trott Borderman, really upset me to see him so distraught. He was on screen for only a second or so before a compassionate Sky TV editor switched to another camera, presumabaly on the grounds that it was a voyeuristic intrusion into a deeply personal crisis. As far as I could see, they were then very careful not to show Trott again.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 7:17:09 GMT
And a final little irony : in the end Rashid and Wood didn't depart early to join the England squad for the Ireland ODI. The final Test was over even before the taxi was booked to take them to the airport!
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Post by flashblade on May 4, 2015 7:36:49 GMT
I agree with all that's being said here. Whittaker and Moores have been an absolute disaster - there's no doubt that they will be out of the picture very soon. I'm pleased that his Sussex history hasn't stopped folks on this board from taking an objective view of Moores' performance. I feel so sorry for Trott, but I'd like to think he could settle down again at Warwickshire. I also feel sorry for the poor sod who's got to take over from Moores - what a poisoned chalice. What chance has anyone got to sort out this mess before the Aussies arrive.
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Post by flashblade on May 4, 2015 7:47:10 GMT
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Post by hhsussex on May 4, 2015 7:47:20 GMT
So if the tour is to be regarded as an attempt to rebuild a side to contest the Ashes - not to mention the currently fearsome New Zealand side - it would be an opportunity to try and address some of the weaknesses we've become aware of in the past few months. Looking at borderman's list of certainties I would say that Moeen Ali has a make or break chance to build innings against the short-pitched ball. He should face plenty of these against the West Indies and if he can't amend his technique then it probably opens up again the question of the spinner's role against the Australians. Secondly, is Bell a certainty any longer? For a very long time we've waited for him consistently to dominate or to delight and the consistency has always been lacking. Usually he has played charming, brief innings, occasionally he has lived up to his reputation and his seniority, but never for long enough to feel that his is the vital wicket in an England innings. Now would be the time to look at bringing on Taylor or Vince, throwing them into the mix with the likelihood that they would have two or three games in which to find their feet and explore the limitations of their undoubted talent. Ballance and Root I agree with, and think that these two will have a big burden on them this summer. Buttler I'm not at all sure of, and if we're thinking of additional places, then I'd like to see Billings given a chance both as batsman and as keeper. Certainly his keeping can hardly be worse than Buttler's, who has failed to show any advance since being thrust into the role last summer. I'd agree with a return for Stokes, and hope again that he can take the opportunity to develop and to learn when to bowl short and against whom. I don't think we need a 6th seamer, though I'd like to see Fiunn back and returning to the form he had before Saker destroyed his action. Here the vulnerable one would probably be Broad, whose all-round game is receding rapidly. I agree with Tredwell, partly because you need two spinners on the current West Indian pitches, but also partly because there is nobody else, Moeen Ali excepted, who is fit to bowl spin at a decent level. I'd like to see Adil Rashid return to the form he showed as a youngster, but nothing I've seen in the last couple of years suggests that he has: his better return of wickets and average last year probably says more about the poor techniques of county batsmen unused to any kind of spin, and to careful handling by his captain. Finally, the ones I haven't commented on: Cook to open with Lyth or Moeen Ali. Lyth looked a class player last year at Arundel and many have said the same about him on far more troublesome wickets, and he should get the chance that Robson has squandered. Cook has some rebuilding to do as a batsman, leaving aside any discussion of captaincy skills. If he cannot do that in the West Indies then we will have to tackle two issues against New Zealand, the openers and the captain. Looking back at my pre-tour, indeed pre-selection comments, how many of those have been vindicated by events, and mostly the negative ones? Bell's occasional delightful innings failed to give any stiffening to a side that depended on him as a senior batsman and in the critical test he went for a pair, whilst England failed to look at alternative young middle-order batsmen. Ballance and Root were good and came to the rescue repeatedly, until panic and poor technique on the one contentious pitch they found let them down. That's a coaching issue. Moeen's batting only really came off in the first innings at Barbados and the run out was another coaching issue, whteher he or Cook was at fault. More runs in that first innings could have salvaged a generally poor bowling performance. Moeen's own bowling didn't wor,k and of course we needed at laeast one more serious spinner in the team. From everything I've seen myself and heard from those who follow Yorkshire, that wouldn't have been Adil Rashid, but having been picked for the tour he should have played, at least to preserve the myth that the Coach and Chairman of Selectors are working to the same strategic vision. Buttler had some entertaining innings, perhaps batting a bit too low, but he isn't a Test match keeper, and sometimes not even a championship class one. His catching was competent enough but his failure to anticipate cost England the game when he missed stumping Blackwood off Root at the critical moment. Stokes is a powerful bat but his bowling is not up to Test standards at the moment and certainly not as a strike bowler. Unless a really helpful coach can work with him he will have to fight for a number 6 place as a batsman and maybe contribute the odd spell of change bowling. I was half-right about Broad: he can no longer be considered any more of a batsman than Jack Brooks, but he did summon up some impressive spells. A better balanced side would have included him as an option, not a mainstay. Cook finally fought his way back into batting form but his captaincy remained inept, through to the final innings when he hesitated over reintroducing his main spinner until the 5th wicket pair were well established. Once he had done so, and that weapon had proved to be malfunctioning, then there were no more options. Of course Lyth should have played as the opener on trial and would have spared us the tragedy of seeing Trott's career melt down in public. A badly planned tour, with no opportunity for practice and a serious of glaring selection flaws, failed to uncover new talent in key positions - opener, middle-order, spin, strike bowling - and ended up reliant on players with technical flaws that don't seem to have been rectified despite a lot of time spent in the protective environment of the England performance establishment. About the only things that can be taken as positives from this ghastly cock-up are several amazing catches from Jordan - and wonderful though they were, the rest of his game didn't quite measure up.
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Post by hhsussex on May 4, 2015 7:50:15 GMT
I agree with all that's being said here. Whittaker and Moores have been an absolute disaster - there's no doubt that they will be out of the picture very soon. I'm pleased that his Sussex history hasn't stopped folks on this board from taking an objective view of Moores' performance. I feel so sorry for Trott, but I'd like to think he could settle down again at Warwickshire. I also feel sorry for the poor sod who's got to take over from Moores - what a poisoned chalice. What chance has anyone got to sort out this mess before the Aussies arrive. Precisely. If there was to be any coherent reason for this tour taking place between the World Cup and the start of the domestic Tests, it should have been to build a new team. What we have is an old team in a shambles with newer players randomly selected and seemingly without any coaching guidance.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 8:08:28 GMT
Excellent and thoughtful analysis, hh.
I'd agree with almost every word, my only question being that - to my own surprise - I find myself wondering if you are being a bit harsh on Cook's captaincy?
He's never going to be Mike Brearley or even Michael Vaughan as a cricketing brain. He mostly does what his coach tells him. But in his defence, why did he hesitate to introduce his "main spinner"? Answer: because Moeen Ali has shown himself not to be a main spinner, had let him down in the first innings and simply could not be trusted. I'd also say some of the fields Cook set yesterday , with catchers at very short mid-on and mid-off hoping for a mistimed drive from the ball that 'stuck' in a wearing pitch, were what in modern parlance I believe is called "funky", and showed some imagination (although I accept that the plan may have been hatched for him by Moores and Farbrace).
I don't know what England should do about the captaincy. I'd be inclined to remove it from Cook, not least because captaining and opening is a huge mental strain; both Joyce at Sussex and Key at Kent now prefer to bat at three or four and if it induces that kind of pressure at county level it must be even more intense at test match level. But what if giving Root the captaincy too early were to ruin the batting of a player who should be England's heaviest run-getter for years to come?
A dilemma, for sure.
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Post by hhsussex on May 4, 2015 8:20:46 GMT
Excellent and thoughtful analysis, hh. I'd agree with almost every word, my only question being that - to my own surprise - I find myself wondering if you are being a bit harsh on Cook's captaincy? He's never going to be Mike Brearley or even Michael Vaughan as a cricketing brain. He mostly does what his coach tells him. But in his defence, why did he hesitate to introduce his "main spinner"? Answer: because Moeen Ali has shown himself not to be a main spinner, had let him down in the first innings and simply could not be trusted. I'd also say some of the fields Cook set yesterday , with catchers at very short mid-on and mid-off hoping for a mistimed drive from the ball that 'stuck' in a wearing pitch, were what in modern parlance I believe is called "funky", and showed some imagination (although I accept that the plan may have been hatched for him by Moores and Farbrace). I don't know what England should do about the captaincy. I'd be inclined to remove it from Cook, not least because captaining and opening is a huge mental strain; both Joyce at Sussex and Key at Kent now prefer to bat at three or four and if it induces that kind of pressure at county level it must be even more intense at test match level. But what if giving Root the captaincy too early were to ruin the batting of a player who should be England's heaviest run-getter for years to come? A dilemma, for sure. I think a Brearley or a Vaughan would have reasoned something like this: "He didn't bowl at all well in the first innings, but his early spell in this one looked better, and now that the breach has been opened the opportunity given to him might well spur him to his best performances. Of course he might drop the odd one short or bowl a bit too quick but rather give him his head now than bring him back later on when the expectation level will have risen." But we'll never know because Cook doesn't have that kind of nous and I think everything he does is conditioned as a batsman: how will the wicket play for batsmen?, is the field spread so as to save runs?, what is the best score we can achieve? I don't think he really understands bowlers very well and that limits him. Maybe, as you suggest, the field placings came straight out of the laptops of his mentors. On edit: Thinking about who should be captain if not Cook, perhaps we should finally adopt the Australian method of picking the best team and then deciding which player from within that team should be captain? At the moment certainties would go no further than Cook, Root, Ballance and Anderson. Unless one of the seven places to play for revealed someone with exceptional talent and maturity, then Root would be the best choice.
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Post by flashblade on May 4, 2015 9:10:39 GMT
Just heard on Radio 5 Live that "the BBC has learned" that Andrew Strauss is about to be appointed as the new Director of Cricket.
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear . . .
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