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Post by coverpoint on Jun 25, 2016 9:01:55 GMT
I disagree that the bar for Brexit should have been set higher as that goes totally against democracy and we fought two world wars to avoid this. You need to do some reading. It's widely known as a 'supermajority' in political theory and is common pratice in many democratic countries. 50 percent + 1 imposing their will on 50 per cent -1 is not necessarily democracy. It can just as easily be the tyranny of the majority and there are countless examples of it in history that have ended badly. Constitutional change in India and Japan , I think, requires a two-thirds majority. In New Zealand it is 64 per cent (no idea how they arrived at that figure!) In the USA, which calls itself the greatest democracy in the world, constitutional amendments have to be ratified by 75 per cent of the individual states (which avoids, for example, the situation we face in which the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland are undemocratically being dragged out of the EU against their will). The UN Security Council requires a 60 per cent majority (nine of its 15 members) on all substantive matters. So perfectly fair for you to say that tyou disagree and a 50 per cent +1 majority is fine as a simple majority. But quite incorrect to say that anything else "goes totally against democracy and we fought two world wars to avoid this." Sorry Borderman I wholeheartedly disagree with you as over a million more people voted to leave. It is far more democratic than the general election where only 24% voted for Cameron. In this referendum 253 out of 382 constituencies (66%) actually voted to leave. Was I surprised by the result? Definitely. I thought it was going to be remain 52% and leave 48%. If this had been the result I would have had no option but to accept the result. Cameron did all he could to make sure remain won by lowering the voting age to 16 (you can vote, but you can't drive, smoke or drink and can't leave school), letting those from Gibraltar et al vote and project fear yet still lost a referendum he didn't need to call. I thought it was wrong that people living Spain and Gibraltar were allowed to vote yet an EU national who has lived here for 46 years wasn't.
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Post by hhsussex on Jun 25, 2016 9:59:09 GMT
Just some factual comments to make about this debate, given that this has been the nastiest, lying, cynical campaign I have ever experienced, and that attitude, and the revulsion to it, has certainly contributed to the way that votes have been cast. "The public in all parts of the country spoke with only London, Scotland and North Ireland voting to remain." - coverpoint unofficialsussexccc.freeforums.net/thread/689/eu-vote#ixzz4CaAyeHkYThe public in Brighton and Mid Sussex, to localise it to people likely to read this forum, voted to remain. The public in, for example, Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich, Cambridge, Cardiff, Winchester and Wirral voted to remain. What emerges is not a simplistic statement of them and us but a complex pattern of local issues, specific economics and cultural dynamics. Do not repeat the mistake of painting black and white now, when there is a wealth of problems to be negotiated. "Cameron did all he could to make sure remain won by lowering the voting age to 16 (you can vote, but you can't drive, smoke or drink and can't leave school)" coverpoint unofficialsussexccc.freeforums.net/thread/689/eu-vote#ixzz4CaDxm7aP Well actually no: that is precisely the point that he did not do so at this referendum, although it was in place for the (first) Scottish referendum. The voting intentions of that cohort are pretty well known and those in the 18-24 group, according to a yougov survey, claimed that 75% voted for Remain. It may come to be seen as a major error that the 16 and 17 year olds were excluded - certainly it seems so to them.
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Post by coverpoint on Jun 25, 2016 10:27:36 GMT
Both sides ran nasty, unfactual campaigns. Where is emergency budget Osbourne threatened? Sussex actually overall voted to leave albeit narrowly: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36617385Brexit: Adur, Arun, Chichester, Eastbourne, Crawley, Hastings, Rother, Wealden and Worthing, Remain: Brighton and Hove, Horsham, Lewes (despite their MP Maria Caulfield being for Brexit) and Mid Sussex The truth is that large part of the countries have had to suffer savage undiscriminate and unfair funding cuts and a fall in real earnings during the last eight years under the Tories. Certainly mass migration has not helped earnings. Cameron's net migration target of cutting migration to under 100,000 is quite frankly laughable with net migration currently at 333,000. It has put a massive strain on public services. Both the government and the EU failed to recognise and deal with these issues. The public wanted to see radical change which they didn't believe would happen if we remained in the EU. To the young bemoaning the result they need to respect their elders. However, I will accept this vote will impact them more than the pensioners who voted to leave. It is how we move forward from here that is important. We need to crack on and get a trade agreement and start moving this country forward. 253 constituencies out of 382 voted to leave. At no other election in my living memory have we had this level of support for one side. In the general election under the first past the post system, which I disagree with entirely, the Conservatives got a majority despite only 24% voting for Cameron. This referendum result is the consequence of successive governments in Westminster failing to govern the country to meet the needs of 99% of people rather than the richest 1% (including looking after their own self-interests).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 11:06:32 GMT
Cameron did all he could to make sure remain won by lowering the voting age to 16 That's a 'factual inexactitude' of Boris-style proportions, an Alice in Wonderland statement that turns the truth on its head like so much of the Brexit propaganda... Cameron used his government majority in the Commons to vote down Lab/Lib Dem/Scot Nat proposals to reduce the voting age to 16 in line with the Scottish independence referendum. Bet he regrets that now, eh?
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Post by flashblade on Jun 25, 2016 11:07:43 GMT
After the Brexit earthquake, are we really going to welcome one of the obvious aftershocks - the break up of the UK. Scots and NI voters will want to stay in the EU, and we will be left with mighty England and Wales on their own - what a prospect!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 11:12:16 GMT
After the Brexit earthquake, are we really going to welcome one of the obvious aftershocks - the break up of the UK. Scots and NI voters will want to stay in the EU, and we will be left with mighty England and Wales on their own - what a prospect! And Sadiq Khan is in talks with Nicola Sturgeon about moving London to Scotland:- www.holyrood.com/articles/news/nicola-sturgeon-holds-talks-london-mayorMakes perferct sense. They've got loads of room up there.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 11:15:01 GMT
After the Brexit earthquake, are we really going to welcome one of the obvious aftershocks - the break up of the UK. Scots and NI voters will want to stay in the EU, and we will be left with mighty England and Wales on their own - what a prospect! Whether they can remain or have to attempt to rejoin, will there be an EU for them to 'enjoy'?
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Post by coverpoint on Jun 25, 2016 11:21:58 GMT
Cameron did all he could to make sure remain won by lowering the voting age to 16 That's a 'factual inexactitude' of Boris-style proportions, an Alice in Wonderland statement that turns the truth on its head like so much of the Brexit propaganda... Cameron used his government majority in the Commons to vote down Lab/Lib Dem/Scot Nat proposals to reduce the voting age to 16 in line with the Scottish independence referendum. Bet he regrets that now, eh? Wasn't it Farage who wanted it to be proportional representation instead of first past the post? This very nearly backfired.
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Post by flashblade on Jun 25, 2016 11:22:22 GMT
After the Brexit earthquake, are we really going to welcome one of the obvious aftershocks - the break up of the UK. Scots and NI voters will want to stay in the EU, and we will be left with mighty England and Wales on their own - what a prospect! Whether they can remain or have to attempt to rejoin, will there be an EU for them to 'enjoy'? A question which illustrates further the destructive effect of the Brexit vote. Is there a lack of geo-political nous in this country?
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Jun 25, 2016 11:50:03 GMT
I agree with much of what Hhs says. I have avoided any debate online because of the fractious, angry, nasty, deceptive, at times, almost desperate pleas from both sides. I cannot remember anything that has stirred up so many of the worst aspects of humanity during my lifetime. And social media, once more, has egged on this vitriol.
Like everyone else, I was stunned and shocked by the result. Remain was a done deal.
Yet, what warms my heart, is that the British public, within all the complexities of who and why they voted, refused to kowtow to a heavily armed establishment that used every method, every high ranking official, to scaremonger, threaten and bully the people. It was vicious. And while the Leave party used their own underhand tactics like "that" poster, perhaps their campaign was more positive, if that was ever possible. That may have had a minor influence.
I note that a petition has now been signed by over 1m people asking for a rerun. Surely, not? Democracy is democracy and always in a democratic country those who lose a vote may never be happy.
There will be a fall-out but how extensive and what that will be is anyone's guess. As the dust settles and the emotions dissipate then a little more clarity may emerge. There is a major divide between the young and old viewpoints - in particular - but hasn't that always been the way?
Another point is the high street media.
While the growing influence of online continues, when the Leave campaign had the Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express, Sunday Times (have I missed any out?) on their side, this counteracted the political establishment elite and their overriding vested interests and brought a fairer balance.
I hope I never have to go through again in my life what I have recently witnessed. The referendum reduced politics to its most base and vicious level and it was politics that emerged from these last months the worst off.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 12:30:46 GMT
I note that a petition has now been signed by over 1m people asking for a rerun. Surely, not? Democracy is democracy and always in a democratic country those who lose a vote may never be happy. Democracy is a blunt instrument. The petiton very reasonably asks that there should be a 60 per cent majority based on a minimum turn-out of 75 per cent for such a major constitutional change. As set out above, this kind of 'supermajority' is in widespread democratic use around the world, including in the US. The petition has now reached 1.35 million signatures in less than 24 hours, which means it will have to be debated in Parliament. Please sign it here: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215It's an official Parliamentary website and you have to enter your name, e-mail address and postcode. You will then receive an e-mail containing a link you must click on to confirm that you wish to add your name to the petition. When you click you then get the pleasure of seeing the counter click up another vote. I was number 1,299,128 an hour ago and in the short time since I see the total has advanced to 1,368,382, so there are currently close to 70,000 people per hour or more than 1,000 per minute signing it. on edit: wirthin two minutes of posting this the counter has clicked on to 1,378,996 so it is now being signed by 5,000 people per minute.
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Post by coverpoint on Jun 25, 2016 12:34:37 GMT
1 million? That's less than 3% of those who voted. I think we need to accept that the British public has spoken.
I echo with your last point and I agree with your third paragraph in particular.
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Post by Wicked Cricket on Jun 25, 2016 12:39:35 GMT
One remembers the last major petition was to ban Trump from the UK. That came to nothing. There is major change in the air, whether for good or bad, and if Trump becomes the US President, the Americans may experience a similar divide to the one in Britain!
Extraordinary momentous period we now live in.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 12:51:25 GMT
Peition is going 'viral' as I think they say.
In the eight minutes since I said it stood at 1,378,996 it has now gone racing on to 1,412,789. Should hit 1.5 million in about 15 mins.
It's actually a very sophisticated piece of software - there's a map which you can click on and it shows you how many have signed in each constituency. Heavy support from Brighton & Hove!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 13:07:40 GMT
We will all need take notice if it reaches 16141212.
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