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Post by squarepoint on Sept 7, 2023 16:06:32 GMT
A lot of the replies to this shows part of the problem with this club. Too many people have become far too accepting of what we have become. There's no other county where the number of youngsters (particularly bowlers) who are not progressing would just be accepted so easily. As for a lot of these players being under contract, it's pretty much irrelevant and we as Sussex supporters should know that better than anyone given that Ben Brown was released from his final year of his contract to go and join Hampshire. Where there's a will, there's a way to get these players gone and bring in some quality and experience. As for expectations and demanding success, just look at what happened to Chris Adams when he went to Surrey. Anyone who has read Grizz's book will know about how hostile the Surrey supporters were towards him and his staff when they were rotting in Division 2. Adams was removed when the standards slipped. Now I'm not saying for one second that what happened to Adams at Surrey should happen to Farbrace here, but the principle is the same. When you demand smart decision makers, demand good leaders and most importantly demand WINNING, eventually you will get it. Just look at how Surrey rebuilt to where they are now. I know people will throw the finances accusation at Surrey, but there are plenty of 'non big counties' who are more than able to compete. Essex are 2nd in the championship, Somerset have just won the blast, Leicestershire are into the ODC Final, Worcestershire could go up this year and reached 2 white ball quarter finals this season. Kent have just won 2 white ball trophies. The perceived 'smaller' counties can more than compete if they have the right decision makers at the helm. Unfortunately we have a pair of vultures Andrew and Filby who run the show. Not sure who these people are that have become too accepting of our current status. Certainly not me but there’s a difference between being unhappy with where we are and agreeing with your solution to kick most of our squad and rely on ‘a will and a way’ to conjure up a mass of superior replacements from somewhere unspecified. I’d be interested in any examples you can name of teams who’ve pulled this off before. Presumably if the new players aren’t all instant successes you’d be calling for them to get the chop the following year. It reminds me of England’s disastrous selection policy in the 90’s. So yes we need to be dissatisfied with poor performance, demand high standards, cut players who don’t/can’t meet those standards and recruit as skilfully as we can but we also need to give young players a fair opportunity to develop and be realistic about our ability to attract the best given that every other county is competing for them too.
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j
2nd XI player
Posts: 107
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Post by j on Sept 7, 2023 17:00:43 GMT
A lot of the replies to this shows part of the problem with this club. Too many people have become far too accepting of what we have become. There's no other county where the number of youngsters (particularly bowlers) who are not progressing would just be accepted so easily. As for a lot of these players being under contract, it's pretty much irrelevant and we as Sussex supporters should know that better than anyone given that Ben Brown was released from his final year of his contract to go and join Hampshire. Where there's a will, there's a way to get these players gone and bring in some quality and experience. As for expectations and demanding success, just look at what happened to Chris Adams when he went to Surrey. Anyone who has read Grizz's book will know about how hostile the Surrey supporters were towards him and his staff when they were rotting in Division 2. Adams was removed when the standards slipped. Now I'm not saying for one second that what happened to Adams at Surrey should happen to Farbrace here, but the principle is the same. When you demand smart decision makers, demand good leaders and most importantly demand WINNING, eventually you will get it. Just look at how Surrey rebuilt to where they are now. I know people will throw the finances accusation at Surrey, but there are plenty of 'non big counties' who are more than able to compete. Essex are 2nd in the championship, Somerset have just won the blast, Leicestershire are into the ODC Final, Worcestershire could go up this year and reached 2 white ball quarter finals this season. Kent have just won 2 white ball trophies. The perceived 'smaller' counties can more than compete if they have the right decision makers at the helm. Unfortunately we have a pair of vultures Andrew and Filby who run the show. Not sure who these people are that have become too accepting of our current status. Certainly not me but there’s a difference between being unhappy with where we are and agreeing with your solution to kick most of our squad and rely on ‘a will and a way’ to conjure up a mass of superior replacements from somewhere unspecified. I’d be interested in any examples you can name of teams who’ve pulled this off before. Presumably if the new players aren’t all instant successes you’d be calling for them to get the chop the following year. It reminds me of England’s disastrous selection policy in the 90’s. So yes we need to be dissatisfied with poor performance, demand high standards, cut players who don’t/can’t meet those standards and recruit as skilfully as we can but we also need to give young players a fair opportunity to develop and be realistic about our ability to attract the best given that every other county is competing for them too. You talk as if there is nobody who could possibly have been signed. We were in for Sam Northeast not long ago, and we didn't get him. Ben Cox was out of contract. Could we have given him the gloves and allowed Carter to focus solely on his batting? But no, he's going to Leics. Leus De Plooy was out of contract, but has gone to Middlesex. Callum Parkinson we could have gone for, and said to Carson to solely focus on red ball cricket. But CP has gone to Durham. Ditto with Matt Parkinson, but he's off to Kent. Colin Ackermann would've been a great addition for all formats, but he's gone to Durham. David Lloyd was available, another all format player with captaincy experience, but he's gone to Derbyshire. Billy Godleman is out of contract, gone to Warwickshire on loan. Could we tempt him? Possibly. Rob Jones left Lancs to go to Worcs. Moriarty has left Surrey for a Division 2 side in Yorkshire. Michael Burgess was out of contract, but he took one look at us during his loan spell back here and thought *** that. My point is that there are players are out there who are willing to join non hundred hosting Division 2 sides. What you need is the right management to be able to attract them. With Andrew in charge, we don't have that. And as for the issue of finances, Filby was speaking to The Telegraph pre this season claiming we have “probably the best balance sheet in county cricket, with not a penny of debt” as per this article www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2022/11/23/inside-story-sussexs-decline/. So how come it never seems to be spent on the playing squad and getting the right players in?
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Post by yikemardy on Sept 7, 2023 17:21:02 GMT
Not sure who these people are that have become too accepting of our current status. Certainly not me but there’s a difference between being unhappy with where we are and agreeing with your solution to kick most of our squad and rely on ‘a will and a way’ to conjure up a mass of superior replacements from somewhere unspecified. I’d be interested in any examples you can name of teams who’ve pulled this off before. Presumably if the new players aren’t all instant successes you’d be calling for them to get the chop the following year. It reminds me of England’s disastrous selection policy in the 90’s. So yes we need to be dissatisfied with poor performance, demand high standards, cut players who don’t/can’t meet those standards and recruit as skilfully as we can but we also need to give young players a fair opportunity to develop and be realistic about our ability to attract the best given that every other county is competing for them too. You talk as if there is nobody who could possibly have been signed. We were in for Sam Northeast not long ago, and we didn't get him. Ben Cox was out of contract. Could we have given him the gloves and allowed Carter to focus solely on his batting? But no, he's going to Leics. Leus De Plooy was out of contract, but has gone to Middlesex. Callum Parkinson we could have gone for, and said to Carson to solely focus on red ball cricket. But CP has gone to Durham. Ditto with Matt Parkinson, but he's off to Kent. Colin Ackermann would've been a great addition for all formats, but he's gone to Durham. David Lloyd was available, another all format player with captaincy experience, but he's gone to Derbyshire. Billy Godleman is out of contract, gone to Warwickshire on loan. Could we tempt him? Possibly. Rob Jones left Lancs to go to Worcs. Moriarty has left Surrey for a Division 2 side in Yorkshire. Michael Burgess was out of contract, but he took one look at us during his loan spell back here and thought *** that. My point is that there are players are out there who are willing to join non hundred hosting Division 2 sides. What you need is the right management to be able to attract them. With Andrew in charge, we don't have that. And as for the issue of finances, Filby was speaking to The Telegraph pre this season claiming we have “probably the best balance sheet in county cricket, with not a penny of debt” as per this article www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2022/11/23/inside-story-sussexs-decline/. So how come it never seems to be spent on the playing squad and getting the right players in?
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Post by yikemardy on Sept 7, 2023 17:26:00 GMT
You talk as if there is nobody who could possibly have been signed. We were in for Sam Northeast not long ago, and we didn't get him. Ben Cox was out of contract. Could we have given him the gloves and allowed Carter to focus solely on his batting? But no, he's going to Leics. Leus De Plooy was out of contract, but has gone to Middlesex. Callum Parkinson we could have gone for, and said to Carson to solely focus on red ball cricket. But CP has gone to Durham. Ditto with Matt Parkinson, but he's off to Kent. Colin Ackermann would've been a great addition for all formats, but he's gone to Durham. David Lloyd was available, another all format player with captaincy experience, but he's gone to Derbyshire. Billy Godleman is out of contract, gone to Warwickshire on loan. Could we tempt him? Possibly. Rob Jones left Lancs to go to Worcs. Moriarty has left Surrey for a Division 2 side in Yorkshire. Michael Burgess was out of contract, but he took one look at us during his loan spell back here and thought *** that. My point is that there are players are out there who are willing to join non hundred hosting Division 2 sides. What you need is the right management to be able to attract them. With Andrew in charge, we don't have that. And as for the issue of finances, Filby was speaking to The Telegraph pre this season claiming we have “probably the best balance sheet in county cricket, with not a penny of debt” as per this article www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2022/11/23/inside-story-sussexs-decline/. So how come it never seems to be spent on the playing squad and getting the right players in? Hardly a list of world beaters and we have already signed Lamb and Wright who would fit into this company. It goes to show available quality players (like the Durham Ollie Robinson) are like hens’ teeth, not that we’ve missed an open goal.
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Post by squarepoint on Sept 7, 2023 17:43:36 GMT
Yes J I agree with your last post. There are players out there we should be competing to sign. Unfortunately though, after a decade of decline, we’re not the most attractive destination so we need to be realistic about the number of quality players we might recruit in one go. Until we get them in, it would be reckless to jettison too many of our existing team.
Also, let’s consider the recent fortunes of the England cricket team. Under previous management after perpetual failure the common consensus (which I shared) was that ‘our players just aren’t good enough’. The new regime didn’t accept this, backed the players, removed the fear of failure, introduced just a couple of new faces and we all know the results. It worked so much better than rolling the dice and changing the whole team. So yes, we need some new blood but we also need to get more from our existing players through better coaching and management.
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Post by yikemardy on Sept 7, 2023 17:57:01 GMT
Yes J I agree with your last post. There are players out there we should be competing to sign. Unfortunately though, after a decade of decline, we’re not the most attractive destination so we need to be realistic about the number of quality players we might recruit in one go. Until we get them in, it would be reckless to jettison too many of our existing team. Also, let’s consider the recent fortunes of the England cricket team. Under previous management after perpetual failure the common consensus (which I shared) was that ‘our players just aren’t good enough’. The new regime didn’t accept this, backed the players, removed the fear of failure, introduced just a couple of new faces and we all know the results. It worked so much better than rolling the dice and changing the whole team. So yes, we need some new blood but we also need to get more from our existing players through better coaching and management. The best way of attracting a quality English player would be offering the captaincy too. That change would of course potentially pee off Pujara to the extent that he leaves. We would miss pujara’s runs although I wonder if the team relies on his runs to such an extent that others hide away and are not developing . He is also a bang average captain. so it may be a risk worth taking if we could replace with another quality overseas, along with that new captain. Or perhaps offer carrot of one day and t20 captaincy to a decent English all format player, keeping Pujara as captain in red ball. Someone mentioned Nick Browne earlier - that calibre of player would be ok. Ideally a bit younger and better. It is easier to build a profile than c9me up with realistic names though!
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j
2nd XI player
Posts: 107
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Post by j on Sept 7, 2023 18:58:52 GMT
Yes J I agree with your last post. There are players out there we should be competing to sign. Unfortunately though, after a decade of decline, we’re not the most attractive destination so we need to be realistic about the number of quality players we might recruit in one go. Until we get them in, it would be reckless to jettison too many of our existing team. Also, let’s consider the recent fortunes of the England cricket team. Under previous management after perpetual failure the common consensus (which I shared) was that ‘our players just aren’t good enough’. The new regime didn’t accept this, backed the players, removed the fear of failure, introduced just a couple of new faces and we all know the results. It worked so much better than rolling the dice and changing the whole team. So yes, we need some new blood but we also need to get more from our existing players through better coaching and management. The idea that players were backed in the England setup is a nonsense I'm afraid. The 11 for the final Ashes test of 2021/22 was Burns, Crawley, Malan, Root (c), Stokes, Pope, Billings (wk), Woakes, Wood, Broad, Robinson. The 11 for the first test of the 'BazBall' era vs New Zealand was Lees, Crawley, Pope, Root, Bairstow, Stokes (c), Foakes (wk), Potts, Broad, Anderson, Leach. Different players give you different results. The same should apply to Sussex. When you get rid of the clowns, you stop the circus.
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Post by mrsdoyle on Sept 7, 2023 19:19:40 GMT
Yes J I agree with your last post. There are players out there we should be competing to sign. Unfortunately though, after a decade of decline, we’re not the most attractive destination so we need to be realistic about the number of quality players we might recruit in one go. Until we get them in, it would be reckless to jettison too many of our existing team. Also, let’s consider the recent fortunes of the England cricket team. Under previous management after perpetual failure the common consensus (which I shared) was that ‘our players just aren’t good enough’. The new regime didn’t accept this, backed the players, removed the fear of failure, introduced just a couple of new faces and we all know the results. It worked so much better than rolling the dice and changing the whole team. So yes, we need some new blood but we also need to get more from our existing players through better coaching and management. England happen to have, in Ben Stokes, a shrewd, fearless and motivating captain.
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Post by therealab1 on Sept 8, 2023 8:12:40 GMT
Of all players in the squad we could pick from the best XI would be
Orr Haines Alsop Pujara (C)
Coles Carter (WK) FHP Carson Unadkat Robinson
Deliberately left 5 out there because looking at the squad there isn't an obvious player that can fill that role so you have to bump everyone else up 1 which is why we havent consistently made big runs.
Robinsons availability is very very minimal and when you look around at the players to fill that role the quality simply isn't there. Unadkat is here for only 3 games.
Wright coming in gives a short term bolster to our bowling but I think we need:
A number 5 A further batter to improve cover. A spin bowling all rounder to provide competition for Carter A seamer.
These on top of Lamb and Wright.
Samit Patel if he wants to play red ball would fill 2 of the above in one signing.
I'd have no problem with them gambling on 2 overseas batters if they both play 90%+ of the season.
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Post by sponge on Sept 8, 2023 9:09:43 GMT
Of all players in the squad we could pick from the best XI would be Orr Haines Alsop Pujara (C) Coles Carter (WK) FHP Carson Unadkat Robinson Deliberately left 5 out there because looking at the squad there isn't an obvious player that can fill that role so you have to bump everyone else up 1 which is why we havent consistently made big runs. Robinsons availability is very very minimal and when you look around at the players to fill that role the quality simply isn't there. Unadkat is here for only 3 games. Wright coming in gives a short term bolster to our bowling but I think we need: A number 5 A further batter to improve cover. A spin bowling all rounder to provide competition for Carter A seamer. These on top of Lamb and Wright. Samit Patel if he wants to play red ball would fill 2 of the above in one signing. I'd have no problem with them gambling on 2 overseas batters if they both play 90%+ of the season. Nice analysis. Also, about time we got a few overs of red ball from Archer. He needs perform for Sussex.
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Post by therealab1 on Sept 8, 2023 9:24:11 GMT
Of all players in the squad we could pick from the best XI would be Orr Haines Alsop Pujara (C) Coles Carter (WK) FHP Carson Unadkat Robinson Deliberately left 5 out there because looking at the squad there isn't an obvious player that can fill that role so you have to bump everyone else up 1 which is why we havent consistently made big runs. Robinsons availability is very very minimal and when you look around at the players to fill that role the quality simply isn't there. Unadkat is here for only 3 games. Wright coming in gives a short term bolster to our bowling but I think we need: A number 5 A further batter to improve cover. A spin bowling all rounder to provide competition for Carter A seamer. These on top of Lamb and Wright. Samit Patel if he wants to play red ball would fill 2 of the above in one signing. I'd have no problem with them gambling on 2 overseas batters if they both play 90%+ of the season. Nice analysis. Also, about time we got a few overs of red ball from Archer. He needs perform for Sussex. The nature of Archers injury I don't think you'll ever see Archer bowl red ball for Sussex again.
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Post by squarepoint on Sept 8, 2023 9:37:19 GMT
Yes J I agree with your last post. There are players out there we should be competing to sign. Unfortunately though, after a decade of decline, we’re not the most attractive destination so we need to be realistic about the number of quality players we might recruit in one go. Until we get them in, it would be reckless to jettison too many of our existing team. Also, let’s consider the recent fortunes of the England cricket team. Under previous management after perpetual failure the common consensus (which I shared) was that ‘our players just aren’t good enough’. The new regime didn’t accept this, backed the players, removed the fear of failure, introduced just a couple of new faces and we all know the results. It worked so much better than rolling the dice and changing the whole team. So yes, we need some new blood but we also need to get more from our existing players through better coaching and management. The idea that players were backed in the England setup is a nonsense I'm afraid. The 11 for the final Ashes test of 2021/22 was Burns, Crawley, Malan, Root (c), Stokes, Pope, Billings (wk), Woakes, Wood, Broad, Robinson. The 11 for the first test of the 'BazBall' era vs New Zealand was Lees, Crawley, Pope, Root, Bairstow, Stokes (c), Foakes (wk), Potts, Broad, Anderson, Leach. Different players give you different results. The same should apply to Sussex. When you get rid of the clowns, you stop the circus. Come off it J, you’re pulling my chain :-) Of that team to face NZ only Lees and Potts were new caps and Potts only played because of injuries. Look at the players in the latest Ashes series, they were hardly fresh faced youngsters were they?
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Post by squarepoint on Sept 8, 2023 9:44:22 GMT
Of all players in the squad we could pick from the best XI would be Orr Haines Alsop Pujara (C) Coles Carter (WK) FHP Carson Unadkat Robinson Deliberately left 5 out there because looking at the squad there isn't an obvious player that can fill that role so you have to bump everyone else up 1 which is why we havent consistently made big runs. Robinsons availability is very very minimal and when you look around at the players to fill that role the quality simply isn't there. Unadkat is here for only 3 games. Wright coming in gives a short term bolster to our bowling but I think we need: A number 5 A further batter to improve cover. A spin bowling all rounder to provide competition for Carter A seamer. These on top of Lamb and Wright. Samit Patel if he wants to play red ball would fill 2 of the above in one signing. I'd have no problem with them gambling on 2 overseas batters if they both play 90%+ of the season. I still have faith in Tom Clark for the number 5 slot. He’s been forced to play as a makeshift opener for most of this season which hasn’t helped him to shine. We definitely need more depth in the batting though and particularly another genuine opener. I’d be unhappy if we didn’t sign an overseas opening bowler next year but please, please, please let it be someone who can play the whole season.
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Post by therealab1 on Sept 8, 2023 9:54:35 GMT
Clarks averaging 26 and only gone past 50 12 times in 62 innings, the stats dont back up his ability I agree but currently he cannot command that number 5 position therefore we require that position to be filled.
I'm not saying we shouldnt sign an overseas bowler, but what i mean is i'd rather have 2 overseas players who can play the majority of the season rather than short periods of time which hasnt worked this season.
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Post by yikemardy on Sept 8, 2023 10:21:56 GMT
Of all players in the squad we could pick from the best XI would be Orr Haines Alsop Pujara (C) Coles Carter (WK) FHP Carson Unadkat Robinson Deliberately left 5 out there because looking at the squad there isn't an obvious player that can fill that role so you have to bump everyone else up 1 which is why we havent consistently made big runs. Robinsons availability is very very minimal and when you look around at the players to fill that role the quality simply isn't there. Unadkat is here for only 3 games. Wright coming in gives a short term bolster to our bowling but I think we need: A number 5 A further batter to improve cover. A spin bowling all rounder to provide competition for Carter A seamer. These on top of Lamb and Wright. Samit Patel if he wants to play red ball would fill 2 of the above in one signing. I'd have no problem with them gambling on 2 overseas batters if they both play 90%+ of the season. I still have faith in Tom Clark for the number 5 slot. He’s been forced to play as a makeshift opener for most of this season which hasn’t helped him to shine. We definitely need more depth in the batting though and particularly another genuine opener. I’d be unhappy if we didn’t sign an overseas opening bowler next year but please, please, please let it be someone who can play the whole season. Who do you ditch then ? Alsop ? Haines? Orr? Coles? Pujara? Clearly not everyone is good enough because we have only won once this season. I think Clark is one of those who would have to go if the club is serious about making tough decisions. He has had plenty of chances and not done much, particularly when it matters. There is a chance his release could backfire and he does well elsewhere. Thems the breaks. More likely he carves out a living in Div Two somewhere. Generally, I don’t think it’s that helpful to make individual cases for keeping each player. You will find qualities and good performances in all of them (albeit not consistently), and end up keeping them all in the hope they will eventually improve. It is more interesting to look on it as there being only so many seats on the boat, so would you rather have that player or that player.
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